EDITORIAL
Aluminum Is Actual
The Roscoe Effect
I'm currently working on my review of Trek's top-value Roscoe 7 hardtail. There are three colourways to choose from, solid parts spec., and a frame worthy of future upgrades, in a complete package that sells for less than current top-end suspension forks. That's 1650 USD | 1880 CAD plus taxes and pedals. Assembled and set up for you.
But I'm having to step away from that piece to manage my mettle on metal. It seems that every conversation, online and in-person, I have with someone who rides hardtails, comes down to the fact that Roscoe's frame is aluminum, not steel. The consensus impression is that aluminum is the wrong material for building hardtails, and that's been bugging me.
Steel can be a great material for hardtail frames. Especially for independent makers doing one-off custom work. It's less expensive to work with for small-batch production.
Aluminum can be a great material for hardtail frames. Especially for larger companies that can spread the design and tooling costs and additional material handling over a larger batches of frames.
What's the big deal? Never mind that we're talking about bikes with 27" or 29" wheels with 2.5" or 2.6" rubber and tubeless setups, with or without inserts. At some point, discussing the relative ride qualities of different hardtail frame materials gets a little suspect. But in general, it seems like many folks have carried forward hardtail frame material experiences from the '90s.
Even riders who hadn't been born yet are talking about the harshness and stiffness of aluminum frames like we're all still riding thin-walled, fat tubed, Kleins with 26x2.1" tires with 30+ psi in them. The same folks are talking about the magic ride of steel like the thru-axle bolted 417mm long 4130 chain-stayed Honzo ESD somehow dances like a classic XC whippet from Paul Brodie or Chris Dekerf.
The 2017 Santa Cruz Chameleon is the first really nice, more-modern geometry, aluminum hardtail I threw a leg over. It opened my mind. Photo: Dave Smith
I was eager to jump on the current MB-1 Chameleon MX at least partially because I like the great-riding aluminum hardtail frame narrative. These frames aren't cheap, but they also aren't cheap.
The Banshee Enigma is like a Freeride-BMX. The chain stays are even shorter than the Chameleon and the head angle is a couple of degrees slacker. It's a hardtail, but the compliance - NOT SUSPENSION - is noticeable.
Hardtail Opinion Self-Check
I'm not telling you what frame to buy or what material makes the most sense to you. I've ridden great and not-so-great hardtails made out of steel, carbon, titanium, and aluminum. I own multiple steel hardtail frames - my commuter, my single-speed, and my test mule. I'm asking that before shooting from the hip about this material, that folks take a hot minute for self-reflection on what they're actually comparing.
When it comes to hardtail frame material, the conversations are consistently the same as the ones I have around rigid forks. Random riders opine to me all the time that they don't miss riding rigid forks on the Shore and in every case, every f*cking case, when I follow up, their opinion is based on riding an '80s or early '90s rig with 26" hard-rubber tires, rim brakes, road-bike geometry, and a stem longer than a beer bottle. The pedals, ugh! The rigid fork doesn't even clear the top ten on things that sucked about those bikes.
A current Kona Unit-X is infinitely more capable off-road than a 1995 Muni-Mula and it has nothing to do with the frame material.
The Kona Honzo ESD is a rad frame, and I have to say that the Red 2021 frame colour gives it a much more boutique vibe than the current options. Photo: Deniz Merdano
But have a look at those drop-outs with their steel M8 mounting hardware, 12mm through axle, stout steel tubing, and that brutalist yoke. It's a stiff rig. Photo: Deniz Merdano
Maybe we can agree on a couple of things. That there are subtle, and maybe less subtle, details in how different hardtail frames with similar geometry ride, even with big fat tubeless tires. And there are differences between budget and more boutique frames in any material, in the way that not all carbon frames are created even close to equally, etc.
Well, then the three best riding hardtail frames I've been on in the last decade, from the perspective of how they handle trail noise, and I've ridden quite a few, are aluminum. The 2017 Santa Cruz Chameleon, the current Santa Cruz Chameleon MX, and the Banshee Enigma.
It's still a hardtail, no doubt, and a premium-priced one at that. But thanks to flex-focused forgings, the Banshee Enigma will surprise open-minded hardtail aficionados that are leaning towards steel or carbon.
Banshee's take is "engineered vertical compliance and vibration damping achieved through clever FEA optimized forgings." My early-days take is that it's less harsh than I figured it was going to be, even running a smaller rear wheel.
The 'Feel' Of Steel
Steel is a great material for bicycle frames, especially for the custom and small-batch frame makers who still drive much of the unique spirit of the activity. It's relatively easy to work with, and I know quite a few folks brazing together frames in their shed or garage. The fact that all these small builders 'choose' steel as the base for their art, amplifies the material's mythology.
With an acknowledgment of Frank The Welder, doing his amazing thing in Vermont, aluminum frame manufacturing starts to make more sense financially on a larger scale where the cost of engineering frame members for weight savings and ride quality is spread over more units, and the extra step of heat treating.
Arden's RSD with a steel bird fork. Aluminum's less abusive relationship with corrosion is another feature worth talking about. The material has a bad rap for hardtail usage, which should have expired.
The Roscoe sporting RSD's aluminum fork. With a 510mm axle-to-crown, this fork opens up a lot of 130-140mm travel hardtail owners to try rigid. With the 3" tire it's not noticeably more or less harsh than the steel fork on my personal bike.
I don't have any reason not to buy a steel frame other than I guess the fact it's going to weigh more for the same application - I'm not much of a gram counter myself - but there are two reasons that I own and ride steel frames and neither is a superior 'feel' compared to aluminum.
1) Attainable Custom Geometry - there are a plethora of custom builders selling steel frames and any number of price points from Marino in Peru to Dekerf here in Vancouver, BC.
2) Available ESD Geometry - bike companies, even bike companies very well experienced with aluminum, are making their most aggressive hardtail geometries only available in steel based on consumer demand.
Steel is the best material to go with in terms of attainability and options for a custom hardtail frame. There are a plethora of choices for a frame maker compared to a couple for aluminum.
As with full suspension rigs, much of aluminum's reputation now stems from its usage in the most budget-friendly mountain bikes. Like this 1100 USD Marin SQ1.
The vast majority of Enduro-hardtails, with the most aggressive geometry, are made of steel. Aluminum would be great for this application in terms of min-maxing weight and strength but the majority of riders expect steel to be used here.
A Note On Repairability
One advantage of steel that's often touted is its repairability and it's true that there are infinitely more options to get a steel frame repaired than there are with other materials since many custom makers take on that work, as much as a service to the riding community as an income stream.
But there's nothing but accountability stopping aluminum and carbon, manufacturers from repairing products. When I see the work that Robert Mulder does with carbon fiber or trade messages with folks who've had their aluminum frames repaired by MDE Bikes in Italy, I know it's only a lack of will and customer expectations that keep a brand like Trek from offering the same.
MDE bikes will do repair, heat treat, and repaint on any of their aluminum frames. Photo: Daniele Villa
That said, steel repairs are still easier to access for most folks than carbon or aluminum.
Mental, Mettle On Metal
Buy a steel hardtail frame, ride a steel hardtail frame, and love a steel hardtail frame. It's good. If the rear end is held together by a chainstay massive yoke and a 12mm thru-axle - seat-stay bridge or otherwise - and I can stand on the pedal with all my weight and there's no visible flex, don't tell me about that magical feel.
I loved every Kona Honzo I owned. They were all stiff-as. I love my Waltworks V2. Even with 465mm-ish chainstays, it's stiff-as. My Titanium Kona Explosif was a wicked bike. Stiff-as. Trek Roscoe? It's stiff-as too. Throw on some fat tires and have a low-maintenance riot in the woods.
If you're in the market for a current do-it-all hardtail and it has to be steel, then have at it - it's your money, and you pick the flavour. But if your friends are in the market for a do-it-all hardtail and you're indoctrinating them about how only steel is real, then I'm calling bullshit. Ride a Chameleon or even the Roscoe with an open mind and I'm positive you'll be impressed.
Comments
kaesy
11 months, 1 week ago
Great article Andrew. I love mountain biking, but I also love objective opinion based upon perception and personal experience. Shouldn't that (and not marketing BS) be the foundation of conversation? It's pretty common that riders blathering on at the trailhead about "the best" materials/dimensions/wheel size/brand/tire are either recycling things they've heard others say, or justifying things that they've been sold. It all matters, but that doesn't mean that I can always tell what's best, or that what I like best is what's cool.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
Thank you.
It is crazy how many companies claim to be making the best bikes always with the best materials and designs, no compromise.
I’d know! I recently did a project of sorts - a written-art project? - collecting all the best (hahaha) marketing hyperbole the industry had to offer (I’m sure I missed tons).
The ostentatious peacockery is amazing.
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jhtopilko
11 months ago
I'd think it would be , but most don't have relevant experience, and easily think their subjective opinion is fact. Andrew brings balance and objectivity that I appreciate and illustrates why I don't talk about bikes with most people that ride them.
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Kyle Smith
11 months, 1 week ago
The mystique around steel frames is not unlike the one around manual transmissions in the automotive realm. By every metric, a well designed aluminum frames is better than steel (lighter, better power transfer, cheaper?, etc.), just as a modern automatic transmission is more efficient and faster than a manual. But they loose out to the romanticism of driver involvement and man-machine connection. Actually, you could continue that line of thought and say that any serious mountain biker should be riding carbon, and all enthusiast cars should come with dual clutch transmissions (just not a Ford's).
I think it stems from a pride thing. Most people who have been in to the sport for a while ride full suspensions, but the few that choose to still ride hardtails do it for the extra challenge of being under-biked, with a side benefit of less maintenance. If you're going to go all-masochist, might as well make it a steel hardtail and then justify the extra kilo of weight by opining on the magic ride of the ferrous metal.
But we're just playing bikes out in the woods, so feel free to ride what makes you happy. Just don't be jerk about imposing your personal choices on other people.
My only personal rule is singlespeed = steel. But that's not for any rational reasons.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
Hahaha, trolling me with the Ford CVT reference there?!
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Kyle Smith
11 months, 1 week ago
You know it. Sorry/not sorry to pick at old wounds.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
Hahaha. Perfect. Don’t be sorry, an expensive (for me) lesson learned. But we can laugh about it now (we didn’t get catapulted into an accident, and are only a little bitter about dumping an, otherwise nicely driving, car with 120K).
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Julian Sammons
11 months ago
Mmm, I think the analogy of auto vs manual car is closer to full suspension vs hardtail. Frame material of a hardtail is far smaller difference, which is Andrews point.
A more accurate analogy would be a car with a manual and light flywheel vs a car with a manual and heavy flywheel.
But even then there's arguably more of a perceivable difference than hardtail frame material.
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Vincent Edwards
11 months, 1 week ago
Andrew- Ragley just announced their 2023 hardtails, and among them is the Big Al which is and alloy frame with 63.5 HA at a very nice price. 480 reach and 435 CS… their BigWig has identical Geo but is steel.
I support you getting both for the sake of research :)
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Lynx .
11 months ago
Yeah, I've always liked their stuff, no crazy extreme geo etc and alu or steel, pick which you prefer. My only "complaint" against them now would be the 70mm BB drop, that's one low as BB, not good in slow technical stuff.
"Andrew- Ragley just announced their 2023 hardtails, and among them is the Big Al which is and alloy frame with 63.5 HA at a very nice price. 480 reach and 435 CS… their BigWig has identical Geo but is steel.
I support you getting both for the sake of research :)"
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Vincent Edwards
11 months ago
That is LOW. The closest I’ve come to that is my 2016 ti Honzo with a 65mm BB drop… but I over forked it a bit so it was closer to 62mm. My current bike is around 53mm drop and I see a lot more advantages than disadvantages where I ride (plenty of rocky tech and pedaling)
Maybe the test can also look at the effects of crank length? If I was designing a bike for 160-165mm cranks I would want to try a lower BB to keep CG in a similar place (and lower during neutral coasting / descending).
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
I’d guess the Ragely geo chart is showing sagged geometry vs. the Kona showing static so not an apples-apples comparison.
Even then, the fact they list one set of geo numbers for a 140-160mm travel fork should ring out a bit suspect.
Nothing against the bikes though. In person the quality looks good.
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Lynx .
11 months ago
You know that's one thing most manufacturers don't do, that would be so easy to include and not have people trying to guess, "Hey is this geo sagged or un-sagged?" Just like stating the seatpost height when you state the ESTA/STA, not hard at all and also, yes, very few do it.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
100%
Or include both charts, which I think can really help folks get an idea of how a hardtail changes.
I like how Banshee includes ESTA at multiple saddle heights.
93EXCivic
11 months ago
I have a previous geo Big Wig which I have been beating on since early 2019. It had a 65mm drop and I had to put 165mm cranks on it with 150mm fork. I don't think would want the extra drop. Also it is a complete tank of a frame.
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lookseasyfromhere
11 months ago
I happily concede that owning steel framed bikes is a solid 50% hipster snobbery for me. I even went so far as to out-hipster the hipsters and decide that their beloved Surly (the Hot Topic of bike brands, imo-"yeah, we're owned by massive QBP, but just ignore that and look how edgy our professionally cultivated corporate image is!") is too mainstream hipster and went with New Jersey blue collar Jamis instead.
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Offrhodes42
11 months, 1 week ago
Us old people should know better than to pass that nonsense down to the youth today, but you are right it still persists. I have a 2011 Niner SIR 9 singlespeed and a Kona Honzo ESD (yes, the red one) custom build. Both are steel, obviously. One with much nicer steel than the other. They both serve completely different purposes and are both fun to ride, but are opposite ends of the steel spectrum. My favorite part about the ESD is when I get comments like I did last night at the enduro night at Highland Mountain. I was passing a group of guys all on full suspension and one dude commented that I was climbing faster than them because of the fact I was on a hardtail. I had to inform him that the ESD weighs as much as most of their full suspension bikes. The Rocky Mountain Growler is another aluminum option for a fun hardtail.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
Ha, yeah my Marinster Truck (El Roy) weighs more than most my friends’ 6” travel rigs. Massive Steel frame, aluminum wheels, CushCore, etc adds up.
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FlipSide
11 months, 1 week ago
That's funny! Exactly the same thing happened to me last week on my ESD. As I passed a dude on the climb (something that doesn't happen very often), I got the "Of course, it's easier on a hardtail." I just laughed away without commenting. :)
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Lynx .
11 months, 1 week ago
Ah, add me as a 3rd to my rigid weighs almost as much as my FS if not more, depending on the wheel configuration. My Phantom is somewhere around 31.75-33.75lbs and my Unit is about 1lb lighter.
What used to be really funny to/for me was back in the late 2000s when I got into endurance racing and did some hard training, only ever owned a way too small for me steel road bike for a few months, other than that trained on an old steel MTB with 27" wheels stuffed in that weighed nearly 30lbs and the roadies faces when they finally got to the top of the climb the first time out on it and they hefted it, they couldn't believe it and how I had just cruised past them up that long climb, spinning away while they were trying to mash their big rings.
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Polk
11 months, 1 week ago
About a year and a half ago, I went from my ten year old, custom steel Bob Keller frame (the best frame builder that nobody has heard of!) to a Salsa Timberjack v2. Everyone says how stiff the TJ is (though I also suspect that a lot of the "reviewers" are just following what Steve on Hardtail Party is saying), but I don't see it. The TJ just doesn't seem more harsh. But tire size was also increased from 2.2" to 2.4, so that probably covers any additional frame harshness. I do notice an increase in harshness going from a long, carbon 27.2mm seat post to a stiff dropper post, but that is stiffness well spent.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
Dropper post stiffness is so noticeable! Going from a 27.2 Thomson Masterpiece to a dropper on my gravel bike had me second guessing how much I’d even use the post - I mean, a fair bit because I put it down and stand on rough sections, but the Thomson was comparatively glorious.
On the 27.2 BikeYoke Revive on the bike now (80mm drop) and folks think I’m nuts, but it is so much less harsh than a bigger dropper. It’s no Masterpiece, but I noticed the difference right away.
.
Not saying this has ever happened, ever, but it would be like a bike shop sending out aluminum road bike frames for test rides with 110psi and carbon ones with 90psi. Back-to-back there absolutely would be a quickly discernible difference in compliance.
Or, listening to folks wax about the extra vibration damping of their new super high-end carbon road bars, and then looking at the super supple fresh bar tape installed on them and wondering what (OE crap?) was on there before.
I haven’t ridden the TJ myself, but I’ve heard good things. If it clears a fast rolling 2.6” that’s been my jam lately.
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Duncan Wright
11 months, 1 week ago
I had an experience I really appreciated where I went into a bike shop deadset on dropping a couple Benjamins on a carbon seatpost for my all-road bike, but the salesperson pointed out my big ol 43mm tires and convinced me I wouldn’t feel the seat post material.
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Velocipedestrian
11 months ago
No experience switching just material of the seatpost, but I notice the flex every time I ride my commuter vs any other bike. Thomson Elite 410mm in a comical 26.8mm at full extension is very comfortable.
If you can use a rigid post for the application, maybe a shim and slimmer post could provide relief.
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Lynx .
11 months ago
This comment has been removed.
papa44
11 months ago
Aha I have the same comically long and skinny post on my 26” on one inbred pub bike and it waggles me about like a spinning plate on a stick, which I’m not saying is a bad thing. Back when i was a cycle courrier (*lights pipe and puffs) the desired setup was strong cheap flexy and simple so smallish steel frame, rigid forks, long post and 2” tires was pretty standard. I also fondly remember snapping my weekend bike, a cannonade m1000, clean in half and never touching ally since.
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DadStillRides
11 months, 1 week ago
Steel is real, but some steel is realer than others.
My DMR 898 and All City Nature Boy had the magical perfect flex that I think gives steel it's reputation. My Ragley Piglet and Knolly Cache, on the other hand, have me feeling a bit like I got tricked into paying more for a heavier option than comparable aluminum offerings. I've noticed the full spectrum in friends' bmx frames as well (all steel, of course).
My conclusion is that you either need to custom order or test ride if you're looking for a specific frame feel.
When are we going to see a review of that banshee hardtail? Very curious about that one.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
It’s like the Surly Sunrise bar! Love how many folks it’s gotten into trying higher setups with more back sweep but, like any steel BMX bar with a cross brace, steel is very real.
Enigma is a story in a story so there’s some unraveling necessary for my First Look. I’m working on getting something together ASAP as I like to do the first hit before I slide too deep into the old rabbit hole. At some point I’m going to pop the R7 onto the front but for now I’m been riding it as a rigid mullet. It’s fantastically fun.
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mikeynets
11 months ago
+1 on looking forward to the Enigma review. I have a mullet Spitfire which is perfect geo-wise except maybe a shorter seat tube (I have comically short legs) and a Cotic SolarisMax 29er f/r which I sometimes think would be better as a mullet (I buzz myself often, see previous parenthetical)
Wondering if that Enigma would essentially be like the love child of my two rides.
It would also be really cool if you were able to A/B the Enigma and Paradox, especially a mulleted Paradox.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
No Paradox A/B opportunity but from the seat tube forward the Enigma is almost identical to my Walt V2 (rear center is ~45mm shorter) so I will A/B that.
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Raymond Epstein
11 months, 1 week ago
I scored a Banshee Paradox frame last year to build as what I "thought" would be just my spare hard tail parts-bin bike that I'd have when my suspension bike was down or as a spare for friends. It ended up becoming my main ride all last fall until the end of the year with the arrival of my new full suspension sled. The damn thing rode so well, I ended up putting nice parts on it. So much for parts-bin savings, D'oh! I have owned many steel bikes and the Banshee has a better ride feel than most of them. As for aluminum bikes having a harsh ride I believe like most things this is relative. If you are big human and/or ride aggressively it is not going to be an issue. Hell, I will extend that point out to alloy bars. I've owned and ridden notable carbon bars with claims of more compliance, but none of them provided enough of a difference for me to use them on the regular. As such, I've ran Race Face Atlas bars since they first appeared.
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doodersonmcbroseph
11 months ago
On the carbon bar front I think it may have a lot to do with how you hold your grips. I have a friend who tends to ride with a bit of a death grip and the carbon one up bars relieved his wrist pains. I've never had any wrist pain riding and I can't notice the difference with his bars. I can feel a lot of other things but bar compliance is not one of them! I tend to ride with a fairly loose grip though (maybe from being used to 80-90 psi tires on a bmx).
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Vincent Edwards
11 months, 1 week ago
I’ve owned a decent number of HTs over the years as well, and 100% agree the stiffness is all over the map regardless of frame material. Let’s not forget rider weight and riding style in this conversation. Production frames need to be stiff enough for a 250-300 lb rider who can put down huge watts, so if you’re 125-150lbs that’s going to result in a very stiff frame. [note: I’m in the hilly Midwest so bike choice reflects that]
I started with a early ‘00’s Trek 8000 26er, and went to a Soma Juice 29er. That was a shocking [positive] change in ride feel (Soma uses thinner tubes than most non-custom makers, plus long-ish stays)
After that was a Spot Honey Badger, which was also steel but with a shorter stiffer rear end. By that point I was on SS (and did the Gates thing) … Next up was a Ti Honzo [2016] which was even stiffer than the Spot due to the super short CS. I’m only 150lbs and could still flex that frame enough to drop chains running SS.
Now I’m on a Chromag Surface Voyager M/L and it might be the stiffest frame yet. It’s also by far the best bike of the bunch due to excellent geometry, fit, and craftsmanship.
It might be in my head, but I do feel like the frame shrugs off hits and vibration nicely.
_
I’d love to A/B the Chromag against a Chameleon V2 or the Banshee - I would not be surprised if those alloy frames are actually a bit more compliant.
I would also love to A/B some different tire / wheel setups on these different bikes. My gut tells me I would notice a much bigger difference in ride feel than I could detect with the different frames.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
Tires - volume, casing, pressure, and inserts (tuning pressure ramping and bottom out) absolutely make a more noticeable difference than frame compliance.
Surface Voyager is a neat bike! Was happy to (finally) see a Chromag with sliders. Now we just need that -16* FU50.
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Lu Kz
11 months, 1 week ago
I honestly wonder about the relationship between steel's magical ride quality and the fact that the word "steel" rhymes so well with the word "real". Is there a connection? If instead of "steel", the word we chose for that particular substance was "circus" or "blancmange" or something similarly non-rhymy, would it still have the same reputation today?
I'm with you on the whole 'my modern steel bike is stiff as' - I've put tire to stay on many a carbon wunderbike but never on my steel 160mm Daambuilt.
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earle.b
11 months, 1 week ago
Vertical compliance in a ht is pure myth. Doesn't matter what seatstays, dropouts, or wishbone work is done. Triangulated structure isn't flexing. See Albatross to see how much mucking about they had to do to get some compliance.
https://www.albatrossbikes.com/projectgallery/2020/12/17/dropped-stay-concept-analysis
Seat, seatpost, tires, and wheels are going to where you can obtain compliance.
Lateral stiffness is going to be dictated by front end tubing OD. The skinnier the tubes of the front triangle the more lateral flex you will get. See reviews of Reeb SST vs Chromag Darko. The Reeb uses a 45mm downtube and Darko is 38mm.
Maybe next we can address the bs that somehow a Reynolds 853 frame has a more magical ride than unbranded Taiwan tubing. Same frames, same tubing specs (wall thickness and butt profiles) and nobody is deciphering between them in a blind test.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
Isn’t the advantage of 853 supposed to be strength for a given weight?
Not sure what to say re. materials and compliance. I’ve ridden the exact same parts (wheels, tires, etc) on different frames and had different experiences.
I have no way of independently verifying beyond saying it rides very nice but the Enigma, for example Keith is claiming <10mm of max compliance from the forging design. It’s certainly a surprising dance partner given it’s plenty stiff hammering single speed out of the saddle and it has very short stays.
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Lynx .
11 months ago
Not what this pieces is about, but yes, steel is stronger for a given weight, especially the more advanced stuff AND it also has a much higher/longer fatigue life and can "move/stretch" more for that given strength than alu, so if like me you like to own and ride bikes for years and years, then to/for me, steel or if you can afford Ti is real.
"Isn’t the advantage of 853 supposed to be strength for a given weight?"
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Lynx .
11 months ago
@Erle.b, I think you must have read a different article to the one you linked, because my conclusion sure does differ from yours and in real life, same wheels, tyres, tyre pressure and rider, on 1 alu and 1 steel frame, yes I could easily feel the difference on a 18" drop, was like dropping on a solid piece of concrete vs dropping to something that's not rock solid. Note this was a drop, so the whole seatpost thing did not play into the equation, true test of frame flex/compliance.
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fartymarty
11 months ago
I'm loving the cross threading with Tom's question on the Steel is Real thread on PB. Agreed thats it's more to do with detailing and tube selection than tubing brand.
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Skooks
11 months, 1 week ago
I remember Noel saying that you can make good (and bad) bikes out of a wide variety of materials. Some materials are more appropriate for certain designs and manufacturing processes than others. All of my FS bikes are aluminum, and my HT happens to be steel. It rides just fine, but the ride feel is completely dominated by tire pressure. A couple too many psi in the 2.6 rear tire and I get beat up. Too few psi and it feels mushy.
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Guy Elliott
11 months ago
my Al giant Talon was fun, my current mullet steel chromag Stylus is amazing, but the lust for a Ti rig is strong.. maybe I should give Al a second thought before going further down the Ti rabbit hole
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Lynx .
11 months ago
@Guy, no don't, not if you have the $$ to afford a nice Ti HT frame without putting yourself into hock. It is such a beautiful material, both properties wise and looks wise and it's definitely a material that once it's build well, WILL actually last you more than a lifetime and if you get the right finish, if it gets scuffed or whatever, some 0000 steel wool will make it good as new again.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Titanium can be a great material for mountain bikes. If you’ve settled on frame geometry that works for you and plan to tune out changes going forward.
My 2015 Ti Explosif was a great bike, and would still be a great bike. Setup very similar to the Enigma with a rigid fork and mullet wheelset. But, the Enigma is more capable, more comfortable, and more fun.
In hindsight, as someone who is usually chasing something with bikes. A steel Explosif would have netted out as a much more affordable, slightly heavier, similar riding setup.
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Skooks
11 months ago
It was a very tough decision choosing between a steel or Ti Tyaughton. The ti is a gorgeous bike for sure, but I couldn't convince myself that the upcharge was worth it. I bought the steel frame and have no regrets. I could always sell it if I really wanted a ti version, but I don't see that happening. The way this frame is built I expect it to outlast me.
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Cr4w
11 months ago
Just get a waltlytitanium.com frame ordered up exactly to your spec for around $1000USD.
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Lu Kz
11 months ago
Do some forum research before you order one, waltly is a great option to have in the quiver but is far from flawless.
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danithemechanic
11 months ago
We can discuss material properties, tube shapes and thickess, welding style, gussets and yokes all day...
but one of the reasons why a person chooses his bike is also a question of feeling, inner feeling, and that's one of the things i love about this sport.
As a mechanic i'm aware of the performance benefits of some materials, the comfort benefits of some others, but as a rider what makes me stoked on swinging a leg over a machine is also the feeling i get from it.
As a road rider, i'll never have anything but steel. And in fact i never had. I come from a big framebuilders and workshops heritage and the steel bike just traces a line for me back to those days, those people, that era. Wich became a big part our culture today.
As a mtb rider, i had to get to know aluminum, and i liked it. No matter how much i drool over steel full suspension custom machines, to me the aluminum full suspension mtb remains THE mtb.
As for hardtails, i just had one, and it was steel. I know what you're thinking, but again, it's all about being related to something for me.
From some brands, like Mde, i won't be disappointed getting an aluminum hardtail, for example.
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MTB_THETOWN
11 months ago
I love aluminum bikes. Modern aluminum manufacturing with hydroformed tubes is amazing and I love the look of my two aluminum full suspension bikes with well shaped tubes and beefy welds. The small weight penalty over carbon is well worth having a frame more resistant to impact and doesn't make the horrible noises carbon frames often do.
I have a carbon hardtail, a Transition Throttle and its stiff as. My friends have that banshee hardtail and the 2017 chameleon, and both are more comfortable. The banshee in particular has the best ride feel of any hardtail I've tried.
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Tremeer023
11 months, 1 week ago
Engineered compliance plus flex stays on short travel bikes (carbon, I know) seems to be gaining more traction (see what I did there :-)) in recent years. I love the idea of using simple flex and compliance instead of a suspension unit in situations where it is practical to do so. Easier and cheaper to service, clean, etc.
Like you, I've had a lot of ht frames in both steel and aluminium with huge variation in comfort/compliance. Overall, the steel frames have been better historically, but I can absolutely believe there are just as good alu options today. The stigma of older stiff AF alu frames will hopefully disappear at some point.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
On that note (I did see what you did there) if one of the major carbon players took their (basically) modern shock-less softail tech and combined it with non-XC geo I’d be keen to try it.
A carbon Trek Roscoe (or even more aggressive) with their IsoSpeed Decoupler? Yes, Trek, yesssss.
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Tremeer023
11 months, 1 week ago
A fully modern aggressive geo softail would be right up my street too. Production Privee made a frame (the Shann i think) with similar flex to the Banshee. Can't really think of many others except xc race bikes.
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Kos
11 months, 1 week ago
I think I'm close to this with my somewhat long in tooth Trek Procaliber sporting a 120 mm fork, and agree that another step in that direction would be a blast.
"Kleins with 26x2.1" tires with 30+ psi in them." You are clearly not old enough. They were Kleins with 26 x 1.9" Panaracer Smoke tires and 40+ psi in them.... :-)
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
I could swear my Panaracers said 2.1” on the side?! Maybe my memory fading with age.
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Kos
11 months ago
Absolutely, they offered both a 2.1 and an even firmer-riding 1.9.
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Velocipedestrian
11 months, 1 week ago
Seeing the IS brake mount and tidy external lines on the Enigma gets me a bit hot under the collar.
I got a bit dark about Banshee adopting trunnion, so a hardtail is the obvious solution. Anyone want to swap a large Enigma or Paradox frame for a Moxie?
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
IS mount makes me so happy too. Put the threads on the cheap replaceable part! The one thing with Banshee is they don’t need the other advantages of IS (more lateral adjustment options / customization options) don’t really matter here but I see too many budget frames with post mount where the PM tabs are too out to effect proper setup.
My experience with the Titan was as good as Trunnion could be. But I’m still with you and wish they found a way to just not.
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Cr4w
11 months, 1 week ago
That's a really good point. I totally have a little shrine in the back of my head that says aluminum is harsh and not good for hardtails.
I get the same pushback from people who fell down in their clipless pedals 10 years ago or who are old enough to remember snowboarders beefing with skiers and use those ancient experiences to prevent them from trying a possibly superior alternative today.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
You’re far from alone.
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Cr4w
11 months, 1 week ago
I've been retesting a lot of old assumptions these days and finding that technology for the most part has come at least as far as price. Much of what used to suck has been reimagined, reengineered and done better to a surprising degree. Things that I thought were written in stone are actually pretty flexible (like my idea of what my ideal reach/ETT numbers are, what certain head angles are good for).
TBH those old ideas were the correct conclusions to draw from our experiences at the time but a lot has changed since then. Don't be an old man. Times and context change. Your old ideas might not be true anymore.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
“Don't be an old man. Times and context change. Your old ideas might not be true anymore.”
That’s my daily morning self-talk! Results vary.
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Tjaard Breeuwer
11 months, 1 week ago
Haha, same here!
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Lu Kz
11 months, 1 week ago
The Future is Now, Old Man!
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Lynx .
11 months, 1 week ago
I'll say that I agree with you Cr4w with the caveat to also not be a sheeple and just follow blindly as the marketers try to get you to buy more and more new crap when what you have is still good, i.e. with reference to geo, it has been good, IMHO, since, well actually for me 2012 with Banshee who were ahead of most in that regard, but overall, I'd say since about 2016 geo had reached it's peak, again IMHO.
For me and probably 75% of the riders worldwide, they don't need a HTA slacker than 65 at the most and something in the 66-67 range would do just fine.
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Velocipedestrian
11 months ago
>For me and probably 75% of the riders worldwide, they don't need a HTA slacker than 65 at the most and something in the 66-67 range would do just fine.
As a rider with a long history of going OTB on older geo, I have a persistent hangup around short front centres and steep head angles.
Now that both my bikes are over 460mm reach, and under 64° head angle I keep having little moments where the reptile brain shrieks I'm about to OTB, then I make the move and roll on... Horses for courses of course, but I find a slack hardtail a beautiful thing.
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Lynx .
11 months ago
As I said VCPD, 75% of riders, not many have the terrain offered by the "Shore".
Curious how tall you are for that 460mm Reach and what length stem and sweep bar do you use with that?
I didn't do the whole 90s MTB thing with that whacked out road geo with knobbies, so less of that OTB all the time feeling, but I did start early 2000s on Vs, 2-2.1" tyres, 71>* HTA and about 400-420mm Reach, so I have a pretty decent idea of the feeling at 6'2" with a massive ape index, but still don't find I need anything slacker than what I stated, even on our most heinously steep stuff, I still like to keep it quite challenging.
Velocipedestrian
11 months ago
To Lynx.
I'm a quarter turn under 6', neutral ape index. Not on the Shore either - way down in New Zealand.
I just hurt myself too many times going over or washing out the front, and really appreciate the bigger window of space to put my weight on modern geo.
Lynx .
11 months ago
@Velo, ah, didn't realise you were one of the lucky ones, one day I will get to visit there :-) From what I've seen, it may not have as much of the steep and techy stuff as the Shore, but it does have some sweet and steep stuff.
Yeah, I had my fair share of OTBs on that Trance with 70.5* HTA, but then 29ers came around and somehow that steep a HTA didn't feel so steep.
FlipSide
11 months, 1 week ago
I have a 2022 ESD. I was a bit bummed at first that they changed the color from that awesome red from 2021, but it was love at first sight when I first took it out of the box. Still, I agree with you the red was a bit more boutique-looking.
Regarding the stiffness of the ESD, I wouldn't argue it feels like a magic carpet ride or any nonsense like that, but I'd argue it's still a rather comfortable ride. I was expecting to get beaten up much more more than I am from riding this bike. That being said, I don't have your experience with many other frames to be able to compare. My previous hardtail was a 2011 Voodoo Bizango. That was not a very comfortable ride at all, but it had geo from another era, a fork from 15 years ago and 26" wheels, so comparing the two would be a bit pointless.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
I love the Honzo lineup! I’m more of an over-forked ST with a -2* Angleset guy to get the ESD-ish geo without the SSSTA treatment, but either way a steel Honzo could be my only bike. Running 2.4”-2.6” rubber relatively soft the difference in frame materials/design becomes muted certainly, but between short stays, big yokes, and sliders they’re pretty boeuf gateau.
Kona has had some awesome, varied, Honzo paint colours over the years. My favourite is still the first generation 2012 Honzo ST Blue with the tiny smiley-face graphic. Something about that bike just yelled out a happy “HI! RIDING IS FUN!”
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Cooper Quinn
11 months, 1 week ago
The best looking steel Kona will always be this one. It'd be incredibly cool if they made a Honzo like this.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
Does it pay well to be mayor of Wrongville, population: you, Cooper?
That’s a good looking bicycle but nothing Kona has done touches the high-polish lugs and bright orange OR yellow paint of these ‘08ish Kona Kapu bikes. Reynolds 853 as well.
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Cooper Quinn
11 months ago
Those are nice but you're wrong.
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Velocipedestrian
11 months ago
Like the 2016 model?
Not actually brazed, but the little touches were a nice look.
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Karl Fitzpatrick
11 months ago
I'm genuinely toying with the idea of getting an ESD and putting a +(!)2° angleset in to bring the bottom bracket up and accommodate a 27.5 rear wheel for my short-arse legs to maintain some relatively normal geo.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Why not get a Honzo ST and run an extra 10mm (or 20mm) of fork travel to make it mullet happy?
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Lornholio
11 months ago
Thanks for the advice on my 2012 Honzo not long ago Andrew. It's set up for town duty for now with BMX tyres and a big gear and is really fun to blast around on but I'll swap the tyres and try some trails once our lifts open, maybe change to an easy gear or dinglespeed sometime so it can climb. -2 headset and 140mm Pike feels fine, not too short like I thought it might, so will probably keep the fork at full travel after all.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
That looks awesome! My custom built 2012 Honzo was experience changing. First single speed I built without worrying about weight.
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VH
11 months, 1 week ago
Another fantastic article, thank you. I love my steel bikes (2014 Kona Honzo, 2016 Kona Sutra, and 1998 Kona Lava Dome). One reason is because the aesthetics of the steel tubes!
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Ripbro
11 months, 1 week ago
I remember I was debating between a 1998 kona cindercone (steel) and munimula (aluminum backwards). The munimula won out. It had an Indy XC out front and I was a kid who had just won the lottery
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
That sounds rad to ‘98 me!
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Do love the aesthetic of steel tubes. At least I think it’s easier to make steel hardtails look good than aluminum or carbon.
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PowellRiviera
11 months, 1 week ago
Kinda off topic but I’m most excited to hear about the Enigma. Been on my radar for a while. Seems to tick all of the boxes for myself
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
As I posted to another comment, the First Look piece should have been submitted already but it’s a story-in-a-story that I’m still unraveling a bit. The frame forward of the seat tube is almost identical to my custom bike, but the chainstays are ~45mm shorter. Also, single-speeding it has been a mini-adventure. I’ve been having an insane amount of fun with it though!
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BadNudes
11 months ago
Yes the Enigma looks great - Just wish they could give it sliders!
Banshee has always been about the modular dropout thing, should have been easy to stick with that system and provide a SS friendly option, but I suppose they needed to slim the dropout area down a bit in the hunt for compliance, and you can't make a production bike without UDH (though I think paragon has UDH sliders now).
Curious to read about your SS Engima experiments! I've tried a few SS tensioners but they were all various shades of garbage.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Yeah, UDH isn’t the issue. Keith and I had a long back and fourth previously about sliders. I contend that single-speeding is just a happy secondary benefit - the key is you end up with riders choosing their own size specific chainstay length.
Keith contends that in the case of his hardtails (Paradox, Enigma) a slider or swapout would negatively affect the ride quality (compliance) and I can certainly buy that.
———
The best tensioner I’ve used is pre-clutch XTR m970 shadow with a Saint short-cage installed on it. I’m okay with tensioners of FS-SS experiments but I’d never run one on a hardtail just because I can’t handle the clutter. Well, maybe not never but it would have be WAY more sleek than anything I’ve seen to date. Maybe something that interfaces in place of a UDH hanger?
Enigma is a 1-2mm too short for a magic-gear setup. Chain stayed on both rides but the looseness was annoying. Have a Trickstuff eccentric on there now and it’s as good as any sliders I’m used. Bonus is that it makes my ESTA slightly slacker!
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BadNudes
11 months ago
Thanks! Even more excited for the review now. I have no personal experience with eccentrics besides being warned off them years ago by the local master mechanic, but I'm sure there are good options out there these days. I'm all about the long stable front, short jumpy rear, a SS Freeride BMX Enigma sounds too good. I still can't shake my nostalgic lust after Banshee bikes - the old Morphine completely shaped my conception of MTB. Talk about aluminium being actual....
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ackshunW
11 months, 1 week ago
Well my little anecdote:
Was riding with my friend (both on hardtails) and swapped bikes for a bit. When I hopped on his aluminum frame, 20 feet down the trail and I couldn’t BELIEVE the skittery pounding the bike was giving me. Stopped to squeeze the tire - huh, similar to mine - back down the trail - BAFFLED at the harshness. Well I guess the aluminum reputation is real!! P.S., this happened 25 years ago, I might do well to recalibrate my thinking.
P.P.S. The harsh aluminum myth from 20-30 years ago does have some truth/evidence from that time period - - but go a little further back to the early aluminum road bike days- people born & bred in that time have more of a “aluminum is too soft” type mentality- courtesy the crusty old racer who ran the best pre-owned / get-it-done / commuter/ fixie shop here in Brooklyn.
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Tjaard Breeuwer
11 months, 1 week ago
Josh Poertner from Silca wrote an article a few years ago (before gravel really took off), talking about vertical frame compliance. I assume it can still be found somewhere on their website,
This was about ‘comfort’ road bikes, but the same can be applied to mtb’s. The gist of it is that since springs in series are dominated by the softest one, the (relatively) soft tire has much more effect than the small variation in (much stiffer) frame.
Of course, there is more flex than just vertical compliance, but it is a good reminder to keep things in perspective.
Then there is the matter of frame material. Steel as a material is way stiffer than aluminum.
The only reason I can think of why steel frames would be more flexible is if you use skinnier tubing. But , like Andrew says, that hasn’t been true for a long time:
My first US bought bike was a cheap Fischer mtb’ish thing, in 1996. Steel frame, but tubing the same size as aluminum frames, and I am confident, had no butting or anything. I am sure that was way stiffer than any aluminum frame of the time.
In 2010 my friend bought a steel hardtail frame, that does ride with a more flexible feel. Guess what? Skinny tubes, open drop outs, long chainstays. If you did the same frame in aluminum, it would be a noodle!
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itsky21
11 months, 1 week ago
Title Idea: Aluminum is all but mininumum
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GB
11 months, 1 week ago
A friend of mine has a new Specialized road , touring bike . It's not a race bike it's for sea wall rides with the girlfriend. Aluminum frame. Skinny tires . Vertical compliance built into the rear stays. A test ride instantly reveals this Aluminum frame to be the most comfortable road bike frame I have ever rode! Amazing small frequency absorption.
The old Santa Cruz Chameleon had a magic feel to it thanks for posting a picture.
The steel Honzo I have not rode one . I assume stiff A F.
It's not about the material. It's how the material is engineered to create a stiff of compliant frame .
They are out of stock now. Land Yacht sells a very affordable steel frame with sliding drop outs .
The Banshee looks beautiful. The crazy slack head tube angle turns me off. I would have to try it and compare with a legit DJ bike to see if it can corner as quick in a pump track .
In theory could one band aid fix an Aluminum frame with carbon fiber wrapped around a Crack?
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Andy Eunson
11 months, 1 week ago
You can wrap carbon to repair an aluminium bike. Leuscher tech did a repair to a very unique bike that way. https://youtu.be/IjwHq6h-5Fk
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
I’ve heard very good things about the ride quality of some of the new aluminum Specialized road frames. Like other than grams they rival the ride of the best Roubaix carbon rigs. And that’s from folks who aren’t big fans of the brand. Sounds pretty great.
.
The Enigma isn’t intended as a specific pump-and-jump bike (Banshee does make one). It’s a modern ~ 140mm travel fork 27” hardtail, that is happy to be mulleted with a 100-120mm fork, and it turns out matches the front end geo of my V2 almost spot on with my rigid fork.
But the back end is 45mm shorter than V2. So the ride is something else entirely. Much less stability ; much more playfulness.
I’m calling it a Freeride BMX. Riding it on some pretty aggressive terrain and it’s working great.
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GB
11 months ago
Matches my mental state . Not very stable but playful.
BMX free ride . Andrew you are singing a sweet serenade causing me to become rather infatuated with the Enigma . A hard tail that is happy on North Shore trails and will work quite effectively on the pump track. Plus a forged yoke . That sounds very durable. Oh dear . I think I actually have a crush on a modern frame .
For me personally this Enigma frame looks gorgeous.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Thus far I’ve only ridden it as a rigid bike but I do intend to pop a suspension fork on the front at some point as well.
It’s been an interesting change from my truculent V2. So playful but still very rideable.
Cosmetically I enjoy it. Particularly the shape of the top tube looking down.
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jeffp
11 months ago
Another great riding Specialized aluminum frame is the Chisel XC hardtail, especially in the 2019-2020 variant with the 27.2 seat tube. It's full on XC geometry, but with a smooth suspension corrected rigid carbon fork like the Cutthroats' and some drop bars makes a fantastic gravel bike that will fit big, fast 29x2.2 rubber like the Conti Race Kings. They stiffened it up for 2021 with some small (slacker) geometry changes and a 30.9 seat tube for better dropper compatibility, but from what I hear is still a great riding, great pedaling platform.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
The Chisel is a neat rig. I especially enjoy that it’s aluminum, budget friendlier, and unapologetically an XC bike.
I’d love to review a Fuse at some point. In my mind it’s the niftiest bike Specialized makes. As my friend Toucan says, someone at Specialized must have been fired for approving it - great sliders, good geometry, nice tubing, looks rad, and the value is decent too considering (closest comparable frame is the Chameleon).
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Tim (aka DigitBikes/DirtBaggies)
11 months, 1 week ago
@Andrew Major, what's yout motivation for mounting both bottles on the down tube of the Trek? It seems like you can't carry as much water this way as with the stock configuration.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
Oh it’s all about dynamic weight balance between the wheel and preloading the front triangle for better cornering… ummm, and I make certain to drink from both equally… hahaha
It’s the same Wolf Tooth B-Rad rig from my El Roy, which just has one set of bottle mounts on the downtube. Way faster to swap it over (two bolts) then to swap over the cages (four bolts). Nothing wrong with the stock mounting.
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pbass
11 months ago
This is an interesting article and makes some fair points.
However....aluminium is just not a very durable material compared to steel in an mtb. Any day of the week if I were laying down some dough on a high-end hardtail i would choose steel before aluminium. Not for ride quality preconceptions...just because its going to have a very finite life that is shorter than I'd probably like.
I have something of a rarity in a 2013 kona process 151. The chainstay brace has a crack in it because its aluminum. I could repair it including the heat treatment but I would still be worrying what was going to crack next....because its aluminium.
It's a shame as I love the hydroformed frames that exist and I am sure the aluminium hardtail game has moved on. But as far as I am aware nothing has developed that really changes the fundamental durability weaknesses of aluminium over steel.
I would still choose aluminum before carbon on a hardtail though.
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Skooks
11 months ago
I expect my steel HT frame to outlast me. I don't have any confidence that an aluminum frame would last as long.
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BadNudes
11 months ago
I don't think it's fair to say Aluminium is not very durable compared to steel... it certainly isn't in line with my experiences. I'd be more inclined to concede aluminium is typically not as durable as steel, but they are comparable. Then again, if you made an aluminium frame that weighed as much as a steel frame, who's to say it wouldn't last generations? If properly designed for the intended purpose, aluminium is absolutely a very durable material. Material fatigue limits are real, but so is corrosion. Nothing is permanent.
In my own experience, and I'm not usually a breaks-stuff kinda guy, but I have broken a steel frame after 6 years of use, and meanwhile still smash around on a 20 year old aluminium xc bike w rigid steel fork that has been jumped, crashed, and catapulted down the hill with and without rider countless times. I check it often, always trying to sense a little extra movement in the frame, always expecting to see a hairline crack near the welds, but so far no reason to stop sending it. I was happy to be able to get the steel bike repaired fairly easily, but there are also commercial welders around specializing in aluminium and heat treating, so it's another hyperbole to say aluminium can't be repaired.
Anyway, sorry to hear about your Process, but you'd do yourself a disservice to write off aluminium entirely because of one failure.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Yeah, I’ve broken a steel Honzo frame - which Kona very promptly took care of under warranty / great customer service - and wore out my Walt V2 (repairable), both of which are over-built steel tanks, so I’m fairly materials agnostic. I choose steel or aluminum for a variety of reasons but I’m happy either way.
Aluminum certainly wins for strength-to-weight and material manipulation for suspension bikes. For hardtails, steel is ideal for small-craft custom - though I’d love to own a custom FTW.
The Enigma certainly shows the extent to which forging and shaping can be used (tastefully) to design a sweet hardtail that’s relatively light and hopefully very durable.
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Skooks
11 months ago
The only frame that I have actually broken was an old RM Blizzard steel frame. The down-tube cracked at a water bottle braze-on, which acted as a stress-rizer. I'm not sure the material mattered there.
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angus_m
6 months, 1 week ago
Mechanical engineer chiming in here. The fatigue life of Aluminum (or lack thereof) is taken way out of context. Nearly every car engine block in existence today is made of aluminum and is designed to live through maybe a billion cycles of combustion, and maybe 10,000 heat cycles as well.
Ti, carbon, steel, or Al can all be made to live plenty long or break spectacularly fast. The details of joint design, stress risers, assembly process make the difference. The fatigue life curve of steels are generally shown to have a dead flat slope after a certain number of cycles, while the aluminum ones never truly flatten out but instead approach some asymptote, but comparing the logarithmic time scales they are plotted on vs the actual number of cycles a real cyclist could actually apply in a lifetime of cycling, this is not the main concern.
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Andy Eunson
11 months ago
As a light weight rider the problem I have with "engineered" compliance is engineered for what weight? When I buy my cross country racing skis, my weight and skill level is critical in selecting skis. Top skis have a sticker indicating weight range. Certain compliant bars come in one flex. They don’t take rider weight or bar width into account. Manufacturers who claim vertical compliance do sometimes place number on that compliance but more often than not they just state it as a fact with zero data to back it up. Or magazine test riders who simply parrot what the manufacturer told them.
We tend to believe what we read because it’s often hard to properly test ride a bike before we buy so we rely upon the written word and word of mouth. Blanket statements about frame material being stiff or compliant have a basis in fact but tube diameter, wall thickness and other properties are equally if not more important. And double Diamond frames have no vertical compliance. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
“Or magazine test riders who simply parrot what the manufacturer told them.”
Hi Andy,
Not sure what more I can say than what’s in my piece above or the comments on the same subject I’ve addressed.
The only frame where I mention vertical compliance is the Enigma. Banshee claims there is compliance thanks to their forging designs (drop out, chain stay @ BB, and seat stay @ seat tube). They claim there’s <10mm. I note that I don’t have any way to test this, and certainly I don’t know what the max movement is at my 185lbs, but compared to other frames, using the same parts, I buy that it’s a more compliant option.
With the Chameleon any claim that the frame is more forgiving that other aluminum options (without feeling noodley) is mine not Santa Cruz’s. That’s coming off a lot of steel and a Ti bike and getting on the 2017 Chameleon and being impressed with how it rode.
As always, I write about my sense of a frame/bike to the best of my understanding and experience.
Cheers,
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Andy Eunson
11 months ago
Definitely not aimed at you or other NSMB reviewers. I mean I base my purchases often enough on what you and other NSMB writers say. My saddles and the Chase Pro pack are two such things.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Cheers, Andy.
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BC_Nuggets
11 months ago
There's a lot of information/misinformation floating around the web regarding different materials. It's a bit much for my wee brain. In lots of ways I think aluminum is a great material for full suspension bikes and hardtails and can take the old complaint of "harshness" with big grain of salt. And at least it won't sit in a landfill for bjillions of jyears like crapon fiber. (I enjoyed typing that :) )
However, what about this malarkey that's out there about the fatigue life of aluminum and the suggestions that an aluminum frame, stem, rim, bar will catastrophically fail at the first g-out experienced after 7 years of steady use?
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Lynx .
11 months ago
BC_Nuggets, that's an interesting question indeed and one I've pondered. Not so much so question if the claims of fatigue life are true, but what sort of timeframe that is. I've still got my first proper wide bar, a FUNN Fatbar, I got it in 2011 and I rode it as my main bar on my FS up until last year. I'm no hucker, that's for sure, but I charge pretty hard with not a lot of suspension and wonder as it's not "retired" to another bike.
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BadNudes
11 months ago
The problem is that you can't put a blanket statement about all aluminium frames. Material fatigue life is finite, but you can't really have any idea how long without fully understanding the design and knowing the real loading (use case, rider weight, power, style, etc.). E.g. a lightweight racing frame might have a 'lifespan' of 3 years and a heavy-duty commuter or MTB might last decades. I still regularly get around on a 20 year old aluminium frame with no signs of failing yet, including regular stops at the pump n jump track... I wonder how many steel frames have rusted out in that time?
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Lynx .
11 months ago
Well, for me, I haven't owned and ridden a steel HT for that long, but my Surly Karate Monkey is 15 this year and it got a good bit of hard riding until I retired it to commuter duty in 2018 and still occasionally throw on the B+/29+ on it to lend someone or if I feel nostalgic. Few surface rust marks around the cable bosses, hoping that the time I took to treat the insides of the tubes is paying off and she'll be good for another 15 years, would love to get it stripped and re-powder coated as honestly, what a great bike.
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yardrec
11 months ago
How'd you like the KM with B+/29+? I've long wondered about doing the same with mine.. Even just doing 29/29+ on it..
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Lynx .
11 months ago
Yardrec, I absolutely love(d) it. Just remember, mine is an '08, i.e. the OG +1 or 2 very small revisions like extra gusset/reinforcement at the DT/HT junction, so B+/29+ is the most I could fit volume wise, if you own one of the newer ones, AFAIK they'll actually fit 29+ F&R.
Also running B+/29+ helped to "correct" the old school 72* HTA and make it much more trail friendly ontop of adding lots of cush, I estimate it took it down to about 69andasmidge degrees.
Here's some obligatory pics of her all gussied up :-D
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yardrec
11 months ago
That’s neat! I have a 2012.
Currently running Velocity Blunts which I guess I could do a 29x2.8 okay on. Just contemplating the cost of lacing up a B+ rear. What are you running?
Lynx .
11 months ago
That setup right there is an i35 for the 650B+ 2.8" Rekon+ rear and an i39 for the 29+ 3.0" DHF+ front. For/to me, you could use an i30 rim up to 2.6", even then I prefer an i35, but if you're doing 2.8", you definitely want an i35 rim, if you try a 650B 3.0" definitely want i40.
yardrec
11 months ago
Thanks for the info! Does the rear triangle clear a 27.5x3" knobby?
Lynx .
11 months ago
Yardrec, as far as I can remember, no, or if they just did with the sliders all the way back, no real room/clearance. I mentioned the tyre width and rim width just for reference as it seems you've not dabbled in the PLUS realm before and those are what I and lots of other plusers. find works.
yardrec
11 months ago
Thanks @Lynx!
I have plus wheels on my other bike that are i40, but they're boost and doing a 135x10 wheel would be the requirement to make it work on the KM. Sounds like i35x2.8 is the ticket. Cheers
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Lynx .
11 months ago
Yeah, that's been my finding as well, i35 will handle a wide range of tyres and for 2.8" seems to give the best shape and ride.
What's your other bike if you don't mind me asking?
yardrec
10 months, 4 weeks ago
I run 29s & b+ on my Rootdown. I tried the mullet with those wheels and it didn't do much for me on that bike.
I think the KM as you've got it would make a nice change for mine. Debating whether it's worth the money for the wheel though.. Old bike, no real need other than to scratch a curious itch.
If I did, I'd do 29x2.6 High Grip/Tough WTB Vigilante front, 2.8 b+ Recon or something like that rear. I'm assuming that would be a smaller diameter than just running the 29x2.35 Schwalbes..
Lynx .
10 months, 3 weeks ago
Yardrec, take it you don't build your own wheels then? I build mine, so "playing around" doesn't normally cost me much. If I were you, I'd take this opportunity to maybe give building a wheel a go, buy one of those <$100 rear hubs new or a used hub, an on sale i35 asym rim and spokes and give er.
The 650B+/29x2.8-3.0" combo definitely works on the KM, game changer, to use the cliché, not sure how a 29x2.6" would be to be honest, if you're running it rigid - it's OK on my Unit, but a bit more would really be nice. You can still get the 29x2.8" Rekon+ and could then pair that with a B+ Rekon 2.8"
BadNudes
11 months ago
Another excellent read, thanks Andrew!
My $.02 - The only blanket statement that matters is that blanket statements, in general, are garbage.
My aluminium RSD is noticeably more compliant than my steel Chromag.
I've broken a steel frame but never an aluminium frame despite regularly riding one that is 20 years old, including stops at the local pump n jump track. But I was happy to be able to get the steel frame repaired for about $50 locally.
Finite aluminium fatigue limits are real - but so is steel corrosion and I've personally seen more rusted out steel frames than busted up aluminium frames piled onto the proverbial scrap-heap of time.
Nothing is permanent, keep an open mind, and enjoy the ride.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
"The only blanket statement that matters is that blanket statements, in general, are garbage."
Love this.
I hope to review a RSD at some point, and I'd definitely choose a raw aluminum option.
I think three things have really improved the life of steel frames when it comes to corrosion:
1) Education - folks I know are way better at spraying the inside of their frames. I ours that are not internally coated once a year with Boeshield.
2) Internal coatings - many frames now ship essentially painted inside and out.
3) Beef cake construction - all the frames I've seen corrode out have been of the super-light, super thin, steel varieties that I just don't see these days. Carbon has really swallowed that market. I look (and lift) my wife's old Sakura frame compared to any current steel frame at any price point and it doesn't make sense.
Likewise, most of the aluminum hardtail frames I've seen broken were of the past variety with crimped chainstays, round butted-tubing, etc. Not saying no one is breaking aluminum hardtails, but it's a brave new world looking at how yokes, dropouts, and headtube/seat tube junctions are crafted.
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BadNudes
11 months ago
Very true, things seem to be built more solid these days for both materials - and good point about carbon taking over the light weight side of things.
It's awesome that if you can stay on top of rust prevention you can make a steel frame last almost indefinitely. I just think that the 'problem' of aluminium fatigue is very overblown. Like a lot of things in the world of bikes and MTB, people get a hint of some real technical materials science and then start spouting it off without really understanding the implications or the design process.
I love that most production steel frames come ED coated now, but all it takes is a scratch then localized rust can leave a problematic stress riser. I've also seen some frames where the coating was a bit patchy, I'd guess poor prep/cleaning on the interior. I still hit my coated frame with some framesaver in the off season. Not to worry anyone, steel frames rusting is another real but overblown 'problem'.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Was going to say, I think both aluminum fatigue life and steel rust are real and overstated.
We’ll see though. My Walt V1 that’s now a commuter/gravel rig has a bit of surface rust everywhere it was modified with rack and fender mounts. I’ve decided to leave it with the understanding it’s protecting the steel beneath and see what happens. Might repair/repaint at some point but probably not.
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Lynx .
11 months ago
Just released today from Neko and absolutely right in line with this piece.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h_2wiZxnYQ
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Lynx .
11 months, 1 week ago
Another good piece Andrew and also a very true piece. I never owned one of those Klein's, but had several friends who did and holy fvck, talk about riding a concrete brick, they were beautiful paint wise, but awful ride wise. Step forward a few years and a friend bought a Trek 8000, 26" wheels and all still back then, but I took it over on part of a ride down a very rough, what once was cart road, but left to get water rutted and eroded away and I could not believe how very nice and "comfortable" it was, even compared to my then Giant Trance, it really shocked me.
Now step forward a few years, I've been on a very flexy Niner 29er FS for 2 years and looking for something different, so I acquire a Banshee Paradox V1, and boy is it different. Super nimble, super playful, fun, when you put the power down, it jumps forward. In tech situations where doing small pivots and moves and quick power bursts, insane, but she's not the most "comfortable" bird on the market, super capable, but not comfortable so to speak.
Fast forward to me, thanks to the introduction of plus, convert my '08 Monkey for proper trail use and it's much more compliant, but I never really compared it to the Paradox because I only ran 2.4" rubber on that and I'm running 2.8/3.0" on the Monkey, so put it down to that. Fast forward again and 2017 is coming to a close, the Monkey is coming to be 10 years old and having giving great service and me wanting a dedicated commuter/road bike, I acquire a 2018 Unit frameset (comes with drop outs for SS or geared, props Kona), it says biggest tyres it'll fit are 650B 2.8", so I do a direct wheel swap of the plus wheels off the Monkey 650B 2.8" R/29x3.0" F and all the parts and give it a go, but don't like the "much" slacker geo it gives (Monkey with the B+/29+ setup I think was around a 68.5HTA, Unit with an external lower cup and 29" wheels is 67.5HTA, with B+/29+ HTA is around 66.5), so I have the matching Dually45 rear to match the front and a tyre to fit and so slam the Unit's stays all the way back and give it a go and what'd ya know, it fits with some room and that's how it's run ever since.
After my experience running B+/29+ on the Monkey, I have converted my Banshee Paradox fleet to run B+/29-29+ and on one ride decide to give one a go, I hit the same trails I hit the week before on the Unit and, most notably on one drop I feel like I've landed a brick riding the Paradox compared to the Unit, cannot believe the harsh difference. Now I believe that some of that could come down to the much longer stays on the Unit offering more flex, material not withstanding, but I don't think that's what it is, more like Banshee designed the OG Paradox to be stiff AF so power transfer and doing moves in the tech were instantaneous and it always was, which was great when I was younger and hadn't fractured my knee and my legs worked as great suspension, but after, not good.
I'd really love to throw a leg over the new Paradox, I really would, just to see how different it is since the new built in compliance was added, but I've absolutely no reason to spend the $$ when I'm perfectly happy with the geo and ride of my Unit, maybe sometime down the road when things are much, much better financially, but not now, especially since I've also got the Phantom if I want "plush".
All this toi say that it's frame design/geo that's important, but it's also tube design, butting and shaping that make the big difference and when companies like Trek, Giant go at it, they have the resources to produces what's needed, easily because of their size, but thankfully smaller companies like Banshee can also now get and use the same technology in tubing to achieve the same ride characteristics.
For me though, steel will always be real, because of that one point you made Andrew, reparability in places outside of major countries, any good welder can "patch" back up a steel frame, no heat treat needed and you're back in business, not so with 7000 series alu, hence why my cracked BB on the paradox was fixed using bonding, not welding.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
On the Niner note, not in this decade but going back one, I had a super light One9 with a (real) Easton Scandium tubeset that was the most beautiful riding hardtail I’ve been on. Road geo, yes. It broke way too soon, yes. It was noticeably a noodle, yes. But wow did it dance.
Unit is a great frame. I think the reason they’re more pleasant than Honzo with same yoke comes down to stay length as you note. Could also be the average Unit rider runs more supple tires.
It’s the neatest thing about the Enigma, I certainly expect the shorter rear ended to be harsher.
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Lynx .
11 months ago
Flexy doesn't even start to close to how bad those early Niners were, I'd be cornering on the RIP9 and the front and rear wheel would feel like they were tracking in different tracks/arcs/trails, was a horrible feeling, especially when it persisted after I got a new set of Flow/Pro2 wheels built by an exceptional builder and was still there.
I won't even getting into if you Niner would cracked, it was more just a case of when, because neither owners were engineers and they didn't have engineers on staff, they did "mild" testing themselves and then let the purchasing public be their guinea pigs, something I will never forgive them for, it was despicable IMHO - when I cracked my RIP9 after just over a year, I should have just listed the replacement for sale and be done with them, sadly I didn't.
I've posted this photo before, but I don't think I'll ever not think it needs posting again, something like this should NEVER EVER make it out into the real world - that's what you call some next level frame alignment right there.
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FullSend
11 months ago
TBH that's still a thing with lot's of companies. My 2021 Norco Optic had a misaligned aluminium rear end. A warranty claim quickly solved the issue, but still. The problem of most manufacturers alloy bikes isn't that they are alloy - it's a great material. The problem is that most alloy bikes are just cheap copies of carbon frames that are designed as somewhat of an afterthought.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
I’m like a broken record with this story but one example that runs contradictory to this clear trend is Pivot (another is Trek).
A few years back I had a really nice chat with Chris Cocalis from Pivot, who is probably too forthright for his best interests and so I think he’s awesome, about this issue when we’re talking about how his aluminum bikes all share as many frame members as possible to keep costs down. He wasn’t willing to make shitty aluminum frames but at volume the cost difference between a nice aluminum frame and a carbon frame is much less than most people think.
At the time, riders were expecting to pay ~ $1000 less for an aluminum frame/bike and the reality was even with smart production that the costs were closer than that.
Not to name names, but this is why companies make shit-tank aluminum frames or only make carbon frames now, even if they made nice aluminum frames in the past.
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Lynx .
11 months ago
Full send, yeah, minor alignment issues happen to everyone nearly, but to have a frame so far out of alignment that "passed" QC and it not be something you didn't see regularly from them is not cool - if you derailleur hanger were that far out of alignment, you wouldn't get good shifting anywhere on the cassette and your chain would be going into your spokes.
I know you only get as good as you make the Asian manufacturers give you, if you don't QC right there at the factory, you're S.O.L. FYI, Banshee and loads of other bike company frames come out of the same factory as Niner, yet I've never seen this sort of massive alignment issue from them - how they are now since the whole bankcruptcy and re-financing I don't know or don't care to.
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Andy Eunson
11 months, 1 week ago
I gonna disagree with the comment that Klein’s were harsh. I had three one season and they rode pretty similarly to my steel hardtails quite frankly. They just cracked. Most vertical compliance in a double Diamond frame comes from the seat post and saddle. There’s also a fair bit of compliance from the marketing. Lateral flexibility is different from vertical compliance. And that I think does provide a different ride feel. As does vibration and shock absorption of different materials and tubing sizes. I had a Kona Hei Hei back in the early 90s. Certainly felt different than any other hardtail I’d had. I’ve had a lot of bikes over the 40 years that I’ve been riding. I’ve had steel bikes, aluminum bikes and carbon bikes. I’ve broken bikes made from each of those materials.
Now I am a lighter weight rider at 64 or so kilos. Being short as well at 164 means I ride small or medium frames which will be more stiff simply because the tubes are shorter.
It’s interesting how for years and years we were told that we wanted stiff bikes and bike parts. Now apparently we all want compliant parts. We are being told now that weight isn’t that important and durability is. And I don’t disagree with that either.
But really when it comes down to "comfort" of a bike. It’s fit fit fit. Fit is probably THE most important single thing.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
I have never owned a Klein and haven’t been on one in two decades in terms of a test ride. I used it as an example because it comes up very regularly in terms of discussions of relative harshness and so it’s a key to the materials myth I was trying to reflect on.
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Ripbro
11 months, 1 week ago
What off the rack, reasonable priced/non-boutique hardtail bike has geometry closest to your ideal for someone riding black trails in BC and Alberta? That also has the ability to run bigger rubber
And for that matter, what are your ideal reach, chain stay, stack, head tube numbers? Are you around 6’ tall?
I’m would love a bike I could use in summer and winter on hardpack icy trails (Calgary)
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Lu Kz
11 months, 1 week ago
Is 2.6 reasonable enough? If so, the Growler is probably one of the better examples.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
[Please Note: My Opinion Not Necessarily That Of NSMB.com]
The Growler is a good option as long as you buy the ‘23 OR get the ‘22 cheap enough to straight up bin the Clark’s brakes and replace them with something decent. ‘22 Growler with some Code R brakes on sale is a good way to go.
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albert03
11 months, 1 week ago
Suggest looking at RSD MiddleChild or Sargent. I have a Middle Child V2 aluminum, it's been excellent. Note the adjustable chain stay length.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Wheelbase adjustment is fun to play with! Plus, easy single-speed-ability is a nice feature in any hardtail. RSD stuff looks great and Alex seems great too.
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
What’s the budget?
I’m working on my Roscoe 7 review to follow this. It’s a rad bike. Under-braked and under-forked for proper black trails but worthy of upgrades.
For something more aggressive, I think the complete Marin El Roy and Honzo ESD are both wicked smile-inducing rigs. Tanks. You have to be good with the SSSTA, but good-enough everything and worthy of upgrades.
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Ripbro
11 months ago
Under $2000 would be ideal but could stretch. I tend to buy Deore level models and upgrade over time. Thanks for the Marin and Kona suggestions I’ll check them out as well as others:)
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
I have an article worth of thoughts. Roscoe 7 review will be in soon, so I’m going to hold off on too huge a comment for a bit. But yeah, sub 2K the Roscoe 7 is my unicorn.
I’d buy an M420 caliper for the front, or maybe a pair (levers/lines are fine) and upgrade the front rotor right away (bigger and not resin only).
Up front I also need pedals and a shorter stem.
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My other short term upgrade would be CushCore. 2.6” rubber on i30 so I’d go Pro. That lets me air down enough that I could run the stock tires.
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Longer (but not that long) term I’m budgeting for a OneUp Dropper (it’s not my favourite-favourite or the least expensive but I think it’s still the overall post to beat), and a rear hub, or more likely wheel.
I like a faster engagement so depending on my budget on the day (and black Vs. a need for splash) it’s an I9 1/1 or a Spank Hex J-bend at this point.
Next up is a fork. Personally I’d be looking for a take-off SR Suntour Auron 35 RC or RC2 PCS.folks don’t know what they have with these forks (they say SR Suntour on them?) so if you keep your eyes open they come up for good deals. Almost always with cut steerers but even if it just stretches there’s a riser bar for that.
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Ripbro
11 months ago
Thanks, looking forward to the roscoe review:)
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UFO
11 months ago
The great thing about the Roscoe is it's available frame only as well. AND it comes in a proper M/L sizing which is super appealing to me
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Andrew Major
11 months ago
Both of those things are wins, and I think the frame price is reasonable, though not discounted like the bike.
My review will note my minor dissatisfaction that the frame-only is only available in boring black.
lookseasyfromhere
11 months ago
2022 Ragley's are 40% off at CRC. Big Wig Race and Blue Pig Race are smokin' deals at $1850 right now.
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Brian Tuulos
11 months, 1 week ago
I would like to see a review where you transfer all the same parts from an aluminum HT frame to a comparable steel frame, and provide your findings. I'm willing to bet the benefits of steel isn't as great as we're all used to hearing because of 29er wheels, big volume tires, and tire inserts. But the 2lb weight savings of alu isn't trivial at all. Its time we challenged this 25+ year old tribal thinking.
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Andrew Major
11 months, 1 week ago
I mean, I think that’s my argument here? Its assuming stock geometry works for you and assuming we’re talking about a premium aluminum frame like the Chameleon or Enigma - the aluminum frame will ride at least as well and weigh less.
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Brian Tuulos
11 months, 1 week ago
^ them's serious fighting words from the perspective of Chromag!
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FullSend
11 months ago
Carbon is so bourgeois. Aluminium is for all the people, dude.
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Brian Tuulos
10 months, 4 weeks ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZfZSURMLfE&ab_channel=hardtailparty
great comparison on hardtail frame materials.
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Bli33ard
10 months, 3 weeks ago
My first aluminium bike was a Cove Stiffee, and I was worried about harshness but it was so smooth- I did the North Shore trails _and _ the Test of Metal on it! Lately I've been thinking of going to a new hardtail just so I can ride a bike and not a "work of art". BTW, I actually have a 1995 Kona Muni-Mula sitting in my livingroom. I pulled the Gripshift and put STX triggers on it, there, upgraded!
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ericjayowsley
10 months, 1 week ago
I've owned many steel hardtails over the years. I like the aesthetic of skinny steel tubes. I like that they've all been 100% reliable and durable. I believed the hype about the feel of steel but didn't really have a solid basis for comparison. I picked up a Niner AIR 9 alloy frame recently as a parts-bin bike for others in my family to ride. I didn't expect much, but it's been fantastic. I choose to ride it over some very boutique bikes in the garage. More than anything, its geometry just fits me. That matters more than any material or parts spec. That it accommodates all of my favorite parts, is light enough, stiff enough, and feels plenty compliant with either 29x2.4 and an insert or 27.5+ are all bonuses. I look at it against a tree at the top of some summit and think, eh - it ain't beautiful, but then I think about what I cleared on the way up and how I felt and the fun I'm going to have on the way back down, and it starts to look pretty damn good. I'm trying to embrace the fact that it might be the right bike for me and care less about the image it conveys to others, even though that kinda goes against the grain for many of us.
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