FN F2000 Dedicated Thread

[jonoboy]

What does everyone think about the F2000? Any first-hand experience with this rifle? Any unique facts or info about this weapon? Basically anything goes in this thread, all long as it doesn't turn into just a 5.7X28 debate, or some philisophical discussion exclusively devoted to the P90.

As many of you may know, the civilian versions of the FN f2000 and the P90 will be available by December of this year. I alread y have my FS2000 on pre-order at Impact Guns. With this in mind, it would be valuable to consider the useful applications of these weapons in civilian terms. It seems that with proper practice/training the F2000 could function as a decent PDW when used with low-recoil/low-velocity ammo for home-defense purposes.

The F2000 is very compact for a 16" barrel carbine (actually 15.75").



The civilian version, or the "FS2000" will have a 17.75" barrel like the one below.





The OD green actually looks better than the pictures shows (the lighting in these pictures sucks: I have seen much better). Although, it is pretty ugly compared to the original black. It also seems shinier. I talked to Rick Demilt about this, and he told me that FN decided that the media is all too familiar with (scary looking) black guns, and that now they can have a chance to talk about green guns. I think that this is a good tactic to avoid all the mudslinging from the uneducated sheeple who get their information about guns from Hollywood. It is amazing how many people associate "black" with "evil weapons" nowadays. Green appears more innocuous and less stereotyped. The look of a gun definitely effects what people infer about that particular weapon's purpose or intended application.

But many people might say, "Isn’t the P90 a superior weapon for the PDW role?" Perhaps as far as deployment and tactical maneuverability are concerned. I just don't think that I could trust the 5.7X28mm to my life without a SWAT team, tactical assessment, and the element of surprise to back me up. In a 'personal defense' situation, instant incapacitation is paramount. Besides, most burglars and assailants are encountered in such close quarters that an ss192 (30gr @ 2200fps?) might not incapacitate quickly enough to prevent the armed criminal from doing considerable damage to persons and/or property. The 5.7 round is the topic of much debate, but if you can handle the size of the f2000, why not choose it? Sure, if I needed a weapon that I could easily hide in a long coat because I was either James Bond or a crazed bank robber, I wouldn't hesitate to choose the P90. But as a civilian, what situation could be envisaged where I would need a weapon that was smaller than the f2000, but not as concealable as a pistol? Certainly if open carry was more culturally acceptable in most areas, I could see the convenience of toting along my trusty little P90. But realistically, most people aren't willing to put up with the pethora of negative attention that carrying unconcealed where I live (Washington) would instigate. So I just figure that a concealed pistol could be my sidearm, and an f2000 could function as my home-defense or wilderness weapon.

The F2000 also seems a cogent candidate for Covert Ops/Special Forces applications. Although I personally haven't heard of any agency adopting this weapon as of yet. Does anyone know why?

[buzz_knox]

Basically anything goes in this thread, all long as it doesn't turn into just a 5.7X28 debate, or some philisophical discussion exclusively devoted to the P90.

Since the FN 2000 is a 5.56mm assault rifle completely unrelated to the P90, why should the subject come up?

As for the rifle, I need to handle one but I'm tempted by it and by the civilian P90. But the civie FN 2000 doesn't fall in the PDW category. It's a full blown homeland defense rifle, comparable to a Steyr AUG or M4gery.

[Stiletto]

Dude...I like the looks of that civvie model.

[fanoblack]

One of the cool things about the 2k is it ejects the empties up front, so it alleviated the problem of most bullpups, NOT being able to switch sides for tactical use. Granted this is a moot point for most civies, but I thought that was one of the innovations of the F2000. From looking at that photo it looks like they took that feature away. The reciever just looks like a normal brass slinging receiver.

I think I remember reading that it will accept AR15 mags, which is a big bonus for its acceptance in the U.S.. I would like the option of choosing which color of stock I have. Maybe they should do what HK did and let them choose a Gray, Black, Green, or Tan model.

Being a bullpup I would like to know how the trigger is on it?

As a side note, how much crap can a guy throw on a rifle? With the added grenade launcher that weapon just looks unwieldy, and awkward to aim/shoot.

fanoblack

[jonoboy]

The reason why I thought the p90 topic might take over is that more people seem interested in it, and there is so much more publicity in the firearms community with it. I have also experienced numerous instances while looking for information regarding the F2000 where a thread began with the topic, only to eventually veer off permanently into the P90/5.7 category. That has just been my experience. No intention to spurn any P90 enthusiests.

[jonoboy]

You can't see the forward feeding ejection port because all of the pictures I posted are of the left side of the weapon. Believe me, it is still there. Such a change would require a radically different design in the rifle's operation and construction. Check out this link,

http://dboy.cpgl.net/fn/f2000/f2000.htm

Here is the translated text,

FN in In 1995 Starts to begin to develop one kind The new armament system will consider the future special combat the need, FN The company the modular thought will pass through newly to this Product development Center, makes in the soldier on the battlefield environment to be very easy to replace the part adapts the different situation The demand, simultaneously, they also request This kind of weapon the new part which will possibly appear for the future stays behind the connection. In March, 2001 holds in the United Arab Emirates Abu Dhabi at the IDEX exposition, FN Corporation first publicly demonstrated this kind of novel armament system, and the naming was F2000 attacks the armament system.


F2000 attacks the armament system is The 5.56mm caliber attacks the rifle The whole for not holds the structure, massively uses the polymer part, the semblance is smooth, assumes the streamline, the structure is compact. Pooled 3 kind of models: The belt optics looks has basic, brings the 40mm grenade launcher and folds the type machinery looks have, brings the 40mm grenade launcher and the fire control system. All models F2000 all may wear the night vision eyeglasses use. On the engine case has one polymer frame place, inside the bread includes the machinery looks has and moulded 燕尾槽, in the frame place very gathers the tidal current region Has one USA Military standard 1913 RIS The guide rail, the above may install optics looks has. Pulls 机柄 port side the engine case, two all may operate.


F2000 Uses leads is mad the type automatic way, actuates one by the connecting rod to revolve 闭锁系统, this 闭锁系统 intensity and the reliability is all higher, and the guarantee does not have the gunpowder fuel gas to enter 弹膛 the region. The dust and other some in broken bits is not possible to enter the weapon interior, because the company pulled 机柄 the trough slit also carries on seal processing. It Uses standard 30 round magazines which the M16 rifle uses 供弹, magazine 卡笋 in Dai Shang Guards against the nuclear biochemistry glove latter Also may use.

FN P90 several 设计特点 in F2000 Above obtains continues to use, including 左右手 all may operate locates underneath the trigger the fire selector. 抛壳 the direction and the conventional rifle is different, F2000 空弹壳 抛壳 in the window ejects from the muzzle right after place above to front.

Shuts the lock (locking head) above has one unusual organization - rocking shaft system (rocker). In order to be advantageous for to front 抛壳, 空弹壳 after 弹膛 extracts is delivered in 枪管 place above the movement 抛壳 in the tube, this movement completes through this unique rocking shaft system. after 空弹壳 extracts, it is fixed by the rocking shaft system, along with the rocking shaft system turn over movement, 空弹壳 above lifts, resigns 供弹 the route for the one round ball, when the one round ball enters 弹膛 after, 空弹壳 was then delivered 抛壳 the tube. When this kind of structure, 点射 fires the first several round balls, 弹壳 will not be ejected, will only have when 抛壳 in the tube will hold many to 3 or 4 空弹壳, 1st 空弹壳 will be only then ejected.

The F2000 appendix includes the attire 手枪口 above bayonet joint which may fold 两脚架 and may select. If need, but also may in M1913 On the guide rail installs the night vision looks has. Moreover, F2000 also might use for parts the future the low killing system.


M1913 guide rail and modular aiming system


The F2000 magazine releases Niu unusual big, even if on the belt very thick maintains warmth the glove also uses facilitates


The F2000 speed seat on a plane underneath the trigger, is same with P90. The grenade launcher trigger locates under the rifle trigger, the use is very convenient.

According to demand, F2000 front 护木 May dismount, exchanges one the 40mm caliber low speed grenade launcher which produces by the FN Corporation. With conventional under suspension type The grenade launcher is different, the FN Corporation's high explosive shell launches And the rifle other parts constitute one organic whole in the contour, after installs one full magazine, the armament system nature mood good locates in the neighborhood of the trigger. The grenade launcher trigger locates underneath the rifle trigger retainer, is very natural can touch. Although 40 * 46mm high explosive shell existence limitation, but considers like will have to develop one kind of more effective ammunition, cost can increase, also will have the market risk, therefore the FN Corporation then was F2000 retains the 40mm low speed grenade launcher.

F2000 may be the 40mm grenade launcher provides the conventional type the turn over type machinery looks has, but this aiming way reduced the high explosive shell performance, because it had the range finder Error, therefore the FN Corporation used the simple fire control system again. F2000 人控系统 installs in the frame place position, serviceable to rifle aiming, but its main function is the precise survey and the demonstration goal distance. Will look on time Aims at the goal, according to one lower position underneath the trigger button, mays then to start one low power the laser rangefinder, the distance then is looking by the red demonstration has the demonstration screen Above, the error is 1 meter Inclines the rifle to above one Decides the angle, the light color then turns the green. If the firer wants by The valley border fire way grenade launching, locates the person controls the system On the frame place crown one part will send out 3 kind of depth Color red / green light, in order to to aiming. The frame place goes against also has 距离修正 Niu, carries on the wind revises.


1 time of telescopic sights visions

Fire control system pressed key

The fire control system produces by Finland's one company, this company's fire control system stress simplicity, some not essential function was abbreviated. The relative Yu Yi You 40mm high explosive shell aiming way, this fire control system aiming precision has the obvious improvement. The F2000 fire control system may adapt to 6 types 40mm high explosive shell, this system also programmable will adapt the future improvement ammunition, will include 20mm, 30mm or other has the special demand caliber the high explosive shell.

The fire control system holds inside by the gun the battery power supply, this battery not only can be the fire control system power supply, but also can for other fight appendices or the system power supply, like the red spot type goal display. Optics looks has, the integration before the improvement 护木 Or fire control system front part tactic 白光灯 and so on. Moreover, uses for parts to F2000 also has in grinds the programmable electronic rate of fire controller, when carries on the long-distance range single shot fire or the low rate of fire fire, can enhance the probability of hitting.

The F2000 design can in 20 01 The year completely will complete, brings the high explosive shell fire control system the model also to complete within the future two years. In the F2000 triturating, the FN Corporation in the cost, the technology capability and the person machine project aspect spent the time. After the synthesis design, the F2000 quality is smaller, the balanced state is very good, is easy to carry, to grasp holds, the use, similarly also is advantageous for 左撇子 the use. The use optics looks has the aiming is easy, even if under the dim environment, the goal picture quite is also clear. First 抛壳 causes 点射 when 弹壳 has not ejected. When salvo fire, 枪身 is very steady, 后坐力 has not imagined the 5.56mm caliber rifle that is big, simply may ignore. Belt grenade launcher F2000 very is also easy to use, because the trigger position is very natural, approaches to the rifle trigger, loads the high explosive shell certainly does not like other grenade launcher such difficulties, namely uses the machinery looks has, the grenade launcher very is also easy to use.

F2000 According to experimental determination best rate of fire each minute 300 ~ 400 round, if need, also may implement the entire automatic fire, rate of fire each minute 850 round At present in the development electron speeder, the firer may use in common this equipment modulates velocity the entire automatic fire rate of fire or 点射.

On stage F2000 and its propaganda playbill. Sees from the right-hand side playbill In the FN Corporation emphasizes F2000 faces the user surface is broad, not only is the military user, also includes the law enforcement unit.

In 2004 on Las Vegas SHOT SHOW, FN demonstrated used the ordinary reflection type telescopic sights F2000

Below is the scanning from in COMBAT magazine F2000

The grenade launcher machinery looks has

F2000 rifle system

Spatial 枪重 3.5 kg
Entire 枪长 694 mm
枪管 is long 400 mm
Looks has 1.6 time of optics look have
Theory rate of fire 850 RPM
Initial speed 900 m/s
40mm grenade launcher

空枪 + the high explosive shell launch thinks highly of 4 6 kg
The launching tube is long 230 mm
Initial speed 76 m/s

　
Writing material: " 轻兵器 " 2001/5
Other materials: FN Corporation website, " COMBAT " magazine, " ARMS " magazine

[jonoboy]

I talked to Rick Demilt, FNH USA's Director of Law Enforcement Sales and Marketing, and he said that the trigger is actually pretty nice. Demilt worked for Colt for 15 years prevoius to singing up with FNH USA, and has fired many AR15 rifles and varients. He told me that the F2000 has about a 5-6 pound trigger, and feels pretty good. So I am assuming that he is comparing it to the AR15 trigger; if you can handle that, then you're golden, since this isn't a target match rifle in the first place. He said that adjustment of the trigger would be difficult, however, since the entire trigger group on the civilian version will be rivited together to discourage any illegal conversion into fullauto.

[jonoboy]

"As a side note, how much crap can a guy throw on a rifle? With the added grenade launcher that weapon just looks unwieldy, and awkward to aim/shoot."

I don't think so

[jonoboy]

Hey Fanoblack,

I understand what you mean by being a tad on the bulky side, but remember that this weapon was designed to house a central power-pack in the stock, and also accommodate any future electronic advancements such as a future ROF limiter that would correspond to a laser range-finder which could change the cyclical rate on-the-fly electronically to increase hit probability at all ranges while in full-auto fire. This weapon also has to be wide enough for the "feed ejection tube" to function.
Sure, this weapon will never be as agile for certain applications as the M4 carbine, but it wasn't designed to be crammed into a tightly-packed helicopter filled with grunts. It is an IWS (Integrated Weapon System) that was developed to fulfill a variety of peace keeping missions, Special Forces operations, and possibly even Covert Ops work. Besides, its short overall length adds to its chunky look, due to the relative ratios of its dimensions.

[jonoboy]

Check out this picture. Without the "Fire Control System", this isn't a super bulky piece of equipment.

[Correia]

I played with these at SHOT. But I have not fired one.

I thought the trigger was much better than expected. I was going to guess about a short 6 or 7 pounds. Not as good as most ARs, but pretty good over all.

It is not bulky. I thought it looked bulky from the pictures, but when I acutally handled it, it seemed kind of fat through the middle, but overall it felt really good.

The internals are neat. You open a cover on top of the stock to get inside if you need to clear a malf. If you leave the cover open while you work the charging handle, you get a really good idea how the spent shell lifter works. I think it is an interesting idea, and I'm looking forward to seeing how well these work in real life.

[FirstFreedom]

I think the FN 2000 is pretty darned cool, and wouldn't mind having one. But it's been mentioned, that what if mud clogs up the empty case expulsion tube? Then you're in a jam potentially - I dunno how much power the exiting shells will have to clear such a mud obstruction before jamming the feeding of the rifle - anyone know - will it push out a pretty good clog of mud and keep firing? And if you don't keep any electronics in the stock, you could carry something else, such as your pistol and some MREs. (Anyhow, on a separate subject, I think the P90 in semi-auto is pretty useless - not the 5.7 round - the P90. Fun, but useless relative to its carbine substitutes, in 98% of scenarios).

[jonoboy]

if not the ammo, how is it inferior?

[Stiletto]

I wonder if FN will make a parasniper version with extended barrel; IMO, the civvie version looks a bit more attractive (due to longer barrel) than the military version, and it's not like a few inches tacked onto the thing would make it any/much more clumsy.

[jonoboy]

A sniper version would be cool, perhaps chambered in 6.8spc and with an extended forend with intergral bipod!

[jonoboy]

Personally I would consider having the barrel cut and re-crowned, giving an overall length of 26". For some reason I am really attracted to ultra-compact weapons. But then again, I usaually find a greater affinity with urban tactics than semi-automatic feats of accuracy.

Does anyone see the resemblance to the assault rifle from Halo 1 here as I do?

[Stiletto]

A sniper version would be cool, perhaps chambered in 6.8spc and with an extended forend with intergral bipod!

Or 6.5mm Grendel, since Grendel's designed for better long-range ballistics anyway.

[jonoboy]

I thought of the grendel, but it would possibly require a whole dimensions change to the interiors of the rifle. I was thinking more of what would be logistically sound for the military's purposes.

[jonoboy]

Has anyone on this forum actually shot the f2000? What do you think of the accuracy?

[fanoblack]

There seems to be some good info here.

That second picture of the guy shooting it with attached launcher looks much more comfortable, the previous picture(last on in the post) in the earlier post looked really awkward. I'm glad the side ejection port is still available.

I wasn't expecting a great trigger on it, but from what I understand that tends to be one of the bigger disadvantages of a bullpup design (SA80, Aug, Bushmaster's M17). Glad to hear it is good solid trigger.

Any idea on release dates?

fanoblack

[jonoboy]

The FS2000 and the PS90 will be available December of this year. You can pre-order yours now with Impact Guns, Cal's Sporting Armory, or with On Point Firearms. The last of the three displays a price of about $100 less. Unfortunately I ordered mine with Impact before I discovered On Point Firearms.

[Stiletto]

I thought of the grendel, but it would possibly require a whole dimensions change to the interiors of the rifle. I was thinking more of what would be logistically sound for the military's purposes.

Would it? Overall cartridge length is pretty close to that of a typical 5.56mm round (57mm for 5.56, 57.5-ish for Grendel). I dunno what the overall cartridge diameters of the two calibers are, though.

EDIT:
OK. 6.5 Grendel gives a base diameter of about 11.23mm; regular 5.56 NATO is about 9.525mm.

[FirstFreedom]

jon, to answer your question about the P90, the ammo has a purpose in a concealable pistol, like the FiveseveN. If you're talking about a non-concealable carbine, I see no reason not to step up to a .223. So it IS because the ammo is inferior in *that* platform. In a pistol platform, it makes sense if one wants either a concealable AP sidearm, or a 'tactical' AP sidearm for backup purposes. The round is not inherently inferior, and serves well in the handgun. But it becomes inferior when placed in a carbine, IMO. I know, the carbine is smaller/lighter/handier than say an M4, and the mil version has 50 rounds, and it's designed for super-light-recoiling full-auto fire, and it's the full-auto repeated hits on the same spot that make it superior to the .223, etc. But in the *civilian* version, 30 rounds and semi-auto, then the ONLY thing it's got left is smaller/lighter/handier than an M4gery. But thing is, an M4gery is plenty small/light/handy, so no need to go smaller, unless you're going for concealment, IMO. Back to the original topic of the FN 2000....

[jonoboy]

I fully agree, FirstFreedom. However, I do think that the shorter length of any bullpup format adds an advantage over the M4 in terms of CQB. Hence this would also benefit home defense, unless you reside in a wharehouse. So I agree, except for "handy" part of the M4 always being sufficient.

Does anyone know the laws (Federal or State) that govern the concealment of rifles? The P90 seems like it could be concealed, even with a 16" barrel. I have'nt found any info about this, even when looking on www.Packing.org!! Evidently no one has even considered this a possibility? If the law says nothing about it, then it isn't illegal, right? Does a state have to issue CCW permits for concealed carry to be Federally legal? To my knowledge (I have done considerable searching) Washington State (my homeland) only makes stipulations regarding the carry of pistols/handguns.

[FirstFreedom]

Ya know, you just may be right, that the small-ness actually IS of a noted advantage in very tight corners and such, over a .223 carbine. I will curse you severely if you cause me to look into this and get one now. :P