danio hybrid?

[Native Keeper]

Hi everyone!

This isn't a serious post, I'm just kind of curious.

So, my mom has a 32.5 gallon that has 4 pearl danios, and 4 longfin-leopard danios (don't worry, we're getting more), as well as some other fish.

My question is, can these two species hybridize? I don't plan on trying to hybridize them, nor does my mother, but I am curious. 

And if they can, does anyone have photos of what these hybrid offspring look like?

Thanks in advance!

Edited January 13, 2022 by HydraSlayer

[Guppysnail]

Ok it’s been a couple years since I looked the genetic lineage of my CPD up. I may have slight faulty memory here so bear with me. There may have been more info come to light. CPD were originally thought to be Microrasbora and named galaxy rasbora. At the time I was reading about it they had determined the genetic profile more closely matched the danio family. So it was renamed Celestial pearl danio. My LOOSE understanding of genetics and hybrids is they must actual be from the same genus to fertilize each other’s eggs. Hope that helps or gives you a direction at least to start researching. 

Danio margaritatus is the actual scientific name

Edited January 13, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Native Keeper]

@Guppysnail, I was not referring to CPDs, I was referring to Danio albolineatus, though the info you gave me is still interesting, thank you.

[Guppysnail]

On 1/13/2022 at 11:55 AM, HydraSlayer said:

@Guppysnail, I was not referring to CPDs, I was referring to Danio albolineatus, though the info you gave me is still interesting, thank you.

I see sorry I didn’t realize. 

[WhitecloudDynasty]

Yes they can, most people don't realize alot of aquarium fish are hybrid, nothing wrong with that.

[Native Keeper]

@WhitecloudDynasty, well, my mother is Christian, and she believes that hybrid animals made by people, such as flowerhorns and blood parrots, are abominations,

[Fish Folk]

On 1/13/2022 at 1:04 PM, HydraSlayer said:

@WhitecloudDynasty, well, my mother is Christian, and she believes that hybrid animals made by people, such as flowerhorns and blood parrots, are abominations,

(Britanica def.)

Hybrid…

Offspring of parents that differ in genetically determined traits. The parents may be of different species, genera, or (rarely) families. The term hybrid, therefore, has a wider application than the terms mongrel or crossbreed, which usually refer to animals or plants resulting from a cross between two races, breeds, strains, or varieties of the same species. There are many species hybrids in nature (in ducks, oaks, blackberries, etc.), and, although naturally occurring hybrids between two genera have been noted, most of these latter result from human intervention.

Because of basic biological incompatibilities, sterile hybrids (those incapable of producing living young) such as the mule (a hybrid between a jackass and a mare) commonly result from crosses between species. Some interspecific hybrids, however, are fertile and true breeding. These hybrids can be sources for the formation of new species. Many economically or aesthetically important cultivated plants (bananas, coffee, peanuts, dahlias, roses, bread wheats, alfalfa, etc.) have originated through natural hybridization or hybridization induced by chemical means, temperature changes, or irradiation.

The process of hybridization is important biologically because it increases the genetic variety (number of different gene combinations) within a species, which is necessary for evolution to occur. If climatic or habitat conditions change, individuals with certain combinations may be eliminated, but others with different combinations will survive. In this way, the appearance or behaviour of a species gradually may be altered. Such natural hybridization, which is widespread among certain species, makes the identification and enumeration of species very difficult.

__________________
 

So, some hybrids are fertile. Others are infertile.

Yes, Danios can hybridize. These are _infertile_ offspring examples…

Some years back, my son submitted a BAP for African Cichlids (Malawi Mbunas) that was declined for BAP points because it was a hybrid crossing…

The reason given was simply, “hybridization is discouraged in the hobby.” We accepted that and moved on. But our LFS owner laughed when we told him, explaining that in nature hybridization happens all the time, and that the aquarium hobby has a LOT of hybridization at its core.

I’m sympathetic with your mom, in that I do not like to see “man-made” fish in the hobby. Glo-Bettas and Glo-Tetras are not my favorites, though I know lots of good aquarists like them.

One fish I breed a lot of are the Electric Blue Acaras. Their origins are shrouded in urban myth. No one had a failsafe explanation for where they originated. I’ve just decided to embrace them, and let them multiply.

But some Club members refuse to buy them…

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 1/13/2022 at 1:04 PM, HydraSlayer said:

@WhitecloudDynasty, well, my mother is Christian, and she believes that hybrid animals made by people, such as flowerhorns and blood parrots, are abominations,

Swordtail, platy, tiger barb are all hybrid also.

If they weren't ment to give form it wouldn't be able to happen, but there they are, living breathing.

[Odd Duck]

On 1/13/2022 at 12:53 PM, WhitecloudDynasty said:

Swordtail, platy, tiger barb are all hybrid also.

If they weren't ment to give form it wouldn't be able to happen, but there they are, living breathing.

I’m aware that swords and platys CAN hybridize, but aren’t inherently hybrids.  They are separate, but closely related species. I’m sure some are hybrids mistakenly sold as species.

I’m not aware of any tiger barb hybrids - someone please correct me if I’m wrong, I’m certainly not an expert on barbs.  There are several color morphs of tiger barbs (albino, black, green, red, variation in width of the stripes, and multiple other variants), but I don’t remember ever reading about any hybrids.

On 1/13/2022 at 12:51 PM, Fish Folk said:

One fish I breed a lot of are the Electric Blue Acaras. Their origins are shrouded in urban myth. No one had a failsafe explanation for where they originated. I’ve just decided to embrace them, and let them multiply.

Aren’t they just a color morph of the wild type blue acara?  Or is there more to it?  I’ve never checked into it, I just ass(u)med it was a selective breeding variant like electric blue in Jack Dempseys.

Edited January 14, 2022 by Odd Duck

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 1/14/2022 at 6:08 PM, Odd Duck said:

I’m aware that swords and platys CAN hybridize, but aren’t inherently hybrids.  They are separate, but closely related species. I’m sure some are hybrids mistakenly sold as species.

I’m not aware of any tiger barb hybrids - someone please correct me if I’m wrong, I’m certainly not an expert on barbs.  There are several color morphs of tiger barbs (albino, black, green, red, variation in width of the stripes, and multiple other variants), but I don’t remember ever reading about any hybrids.

Yes swordtail and platy can hybridized, they even do that in the wild. But almost every platy and swordtail in our market are hybrid, unless said wild caught or collected location.

The true tiger barb isn't as colorful and less aggressive than what we have now. Even guppies are being cross to endlers.. 

I mainly work with white cloud and both north and south minnow have been now cross into just 1 fish, some are even cross to the vietnamese white cloud.

[Torrey]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:32 AM, HydraSlayer said:

Hi everyone!

This isn't a serious post, I'm just kind of curious.

So, my mom has a 32.5 gallon that has 4 pearl danios, and 4 longfin-leopard danios (don't worry, we're getting more), as well as some other fish.

My question is, can these two species hybridize? I don't plan on trying to hybridize them, nor does my mother, but I am curious. 

And if they can, does anyone have photos of what these hybrid offspring look like?

Thanks in advance!

My understanding is the pearl and leopard can't crossbreed, but leopard and zebra danios can.

There's a research paper on it, I don't remember which journal though.

[Odd Duck]

On 1/14/2022 at 5:47 PM, WhitecloudDynasty said:

Yes swordtail and platy can hybridized, they even do that in the wild. But almost every platy and swordtail in our market are hybrid, unless said wild caught or collected location.

The true tiger barb isn't as colorful and less aggressive than what we have now. Even guppies are being cross to endlers.. 

I mainly work with white cloud and both north and south minnow have been now cross into just 1 fish, some are even cross to the vietnamese white cloud.

I don’t know if that’s true about most swords and platys all being hybrid now.  I honestly couldn’t say one way or the other, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find out there were lots of hybrids.  I do know they readily hybridize and there have been hybrids in the trade since I started in fish in the mid 70’s.

I haven’t kept tiger barbs in decades, but they were always considered aggressive unless kept in groups of their own kind.  But most that I see are not a different color than I remember from way back (except, of course, the fancy colored ones), but that makes them selectively bred, not hybrid.

I know there are plenty of hybrids out there.  I’m not crazy about hybrids in general, but some popular with others, to each their own.  I’d rather most hadn’t happened because I’d rather we, as a community, would work at keeping wild types pure, but I mostly don’t mind hybrids unless the change causes a health problem for the animal.

It’s impossible to tell what the hybrids are in some species or groups with swords and platys being a good example with their basic body type being so similar and they’re so closely related to start.  Some hybrids are much more obvious.  I’m certainly no expert on hybridization because it’s not something I’ve dug into much since usually I’m just looking to avoid hybrids, not create them.  Not for religious reasons, just ethical reasons.  What we (humans in general) sometimes do to animals with selective breeding is bad enough without producing deliberate hybrids.

I know that you’re extremely careful with your selective breeding, I’ve seen your posts.  I’ll never have a problem with somebody that is very ethical and very selective with their breeding like you are, making sure to avoid poor conformation traits while they make desired color selections.  The hybrids that bother me most are breeding IN conformation defects that are potentially causing pain to the hybrid animal.  The selective breeding issues I have a problem with are deliberately selecting for traits that cause pain to the animal (like every bulldog I’ve ever met - they ALL have spinal issues, and nearly all have breathing issues and other joint issues among many other things).  It also bothers me when people are hybridizing animals that are endangered in the wild (like hybridizing  macaws when most species are critically endangered).

I’m not so snobby that I think hybrids are worthless, or so cruel to think they should be destroyed.  I would just very much like to see the hobby get away from them instead of deliberately creating more.

It’s now illegal to breed extremely short muzzled dogs (muzzle less than 1/3 the total head length) in some European countries because it causes them such significant health problems it’s considered cruel.  It’s not enforced in most countries that have passed similar laws, but it is illegal.  It is starting to be enforced in some countries.  This is also likely something that will spread to more countries and to other species.  It may take decades, but it will almost certainly spread.  More and more veterinarians are pushing for this since we see the pain and suffering from poor breeding choices.

Sorry about climbing on a soapbox, there, but selective breeding that harms is a terrible thing and hybrids that are purely for entertainment and not for improving health and viabilitywould also fit in the bad category for me.

 

On 1/14/2022 at 9:52 PM, Torrey said:

My understanding is the pearl and leopard can't crossbreed, but leopard and zebra danios can.

There's a research paper on it, I don't remember which journal though.

 Leopard danios are known to be a color morph of zebra danios, not a separate species.

[Native Keeper]

oh wow, so much info! this got much more attention than I anticipated!

[Torrey]

@Odd Duck, I'm ord

Thank you for your detailed explanation. 

[Odd Duck]

Somebody linked some really good Danio information just the other day.  I can never remember which thread has what info.  Let me see if I can find the link.

Found it.

 

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 1/14/2022 at 11:28 PM, Odd Duck said:

I don’t know if that’s true about most swords and platys all being hybrid now.  I honestly couldn’t say one way or the other, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find out there were lots of hybrids.  I do know they readily hybridize and there have been hybrids in the trade since I started in fish in the mid 70’s.

I haven’t kept tiger barbs in decades, but they were always considered aggressive unless kept in groups of their own kind.  But most that I see are not a different color than I remember from way back (except, of course, the fancy colored ones), but that makes them selectively bred, not hybrid.

I know there are plenty of hybrids out there.  I’m not crazy about hybrids in general, but some popular with others, to each their own.  I’d rather most hadn’t happened because I’d rather we, as a community, would work at keeping wild types pure, but I mostly don’t mind hybrids unless the change causes a health problem for the animal.

It’s impossible to tell what the hybrids are in some species or groups with swords and platys being a good example with their basic body type being so similar and they’re so closely related to start.  Some hybrids are much more obvious.  I’m certainly no expert on hybridization because it’s not something I’ve dug into much since usually I’m just looking to avoid hybrids, not create them.  Not for religious reasons, just ethical reasons.  What we (humans in general) sometimes do to animals with selective breeding is bad enough without producing deliberate hybrids.

I know that you’re extremely careful with your selective breeding, I’ve seen your posts.  I’ll never have a problem with somebody that is very ethical and very selective with their breeding like you are, making sure to avoid poor conformation traits while they make desired color selections.  The hybrids that bother me most are breeding IN conformation defects that are potentially causing pain to the hybrid animal.  The selective breeding issues I have a problem with are deliberately selecting for traits that cause pain to the animal (like every bulldog I’ve ever met - they ALL have spinal issues, and nearly all have breathing issues and other joint issues among many other things).  It also bothers me when people are hybridizing animals that are endangered in the wild (like hybridizing  macaws when most species are critically endangered).

I’m not so snobby that I think hybrids are worthless, or so cruel to think they should be destroyed.  I would just very much like to see the hobby get away from them instead of deliberately creating more.

It’s now illegal to breed extremely short muzzled dogs (muzzle less than 1/3 the total head length) in some European countries because it causes them such significant health problems it’s considered cruel.  It’s not enforced in most countries that have passed similar laws, but it is illegal.  It is starting to be enforced in some countries.  This is also likely something that will spread to more countries and to other species.  It may take decades, but it will almost certainly spread.  More and more veterinarians are pushing for this since we see the pain and suffering from poor breeding choices.

Sorry about climbing on a soapbox, there, but selective breeding that harms is a terrible thing and hybrids that are purely for entertainment and not for improving health and viabilitywould also fit in the bad category for me.

 

 Leopard danios are known to be a color morph of zebra danios, not a separate species.

I 100% agree, breeding any animals to have health problems isn't right and irresponsible.

I also breed doberman and there some bad gene that comes along with the breed, as a breeder it's my responsibility to make sure the parent don't pass on the negative gene, so my breeder gets health testing and genetics testing. Plus they live like farm dog, I want the hardiest working doberman possible. 

As a white cloud breeder I'm stuck, farm stock have deformity and no one is really working with them... so bad gene gets pass along. Since they don't have anymore in the wild I  can't just clean them up with wild pure stock. I have thought about using their closest cousin (vietnamese white cloud) to clean them up. But with the group(50 fish) I picked up all have poor conformation also. 

Maybe I'm too picky or setting the bar to high o well lol

 

Here's a few photo I pull from the web..these are not my fish

This male have poor jaw, top jaw is too short, and hump is too high

 

his face to angle way too high

badhead poor tail

I'm 90% sure this female is a hybrid, the dark body comes from the normal whitecloud and the dark black bar come from the vietnamese white cloud. So its in the market already.

Edited January 15, 2022 by WhitecloudDynasty

[Fish Folk]

On 1/14/2022 at 6:08 PM, Odd Duck said:

I’m aware that swords and platys CAN hybridize, but aren’t inherently hybrids.  They are separate, but closely related species. I’m sure some are hybrids mistakenly sold as species.

I’m not aware of any tiger barb hybrids - someone please correct me if I’m wrong, I’m certainly not an expert on barbs.  There are several color morphs of tiger barbs (albino, black, green, red, variation in width of the stripes, and multiple other variants), but I don’t remember ever reading about any hybrids.

Aren’t they just a color morph of the wild type blue acara?  Or is there more to it?  I’ve never checked into it, I just ass(u)med it was a selective breeding variant like electric blue in Jack Dempseys.

I suspect that they are a carefully constructed selective breeding project from the wild type Acaras. However, apparently the breeder of origin hasn’t disclosed this. Some have claimed that male Electric Blue Ram milt was used to fertilize female Acara Eggs until a line was set. I think this is dubious… but stranger things have happened.

[Odd Duck]

@WhitecloudDynasty I’ve seen you post comments before about how carefully you are selecting your breeding stock and truly admire you for both your knowledge and dedication in IMPROVING the species while working toward what are essentially different breeds [color morphs, fin changes] that enhance the original with no detriment to the species.  I’ll never have a problem with that when it’s done with such careful attention toward correcting issues.

That information about the black line likely being from cross breeding with Vietnamese White Clouds is exactly the kind of thing that a knowledgeable breeder has that needs to be disseminated by forums like this.  It’s exactly this type of thing that troubles me about hybrids since 99% of people won’t know that, and hybrids get unknowingly perpetuated.  Until I heard it from you, I didn’t even know there were northern, southern and Vietnamese species.  I haven’t kept White Clouds in decades and have never bred them.

I’m glad to hear you take the same careful approach to breeding your dobermans - one of the breeds for which I have a real soft spot, they’re sooo sweet and lovey!  Thank you for that determination to work towards clearing some of the breed’s health issues.

 

@Fish Folk That makes far more sense to me that it was selective breeding, not hybridization with rams.  Electric blue Dempseys also tend to be smaller and weaker like EB acaras are reported to be.

[Torrey]

On 1/15/2022 at 7:54 PM, Odd Duck said:

@WhitecloudDynasty I’ve seen you post comments before about how carefully you are selecting your breeding stock and truly admire you for both your knowledge and dedication in IMPROVING the species while working toward what are essentially different breeds [color morphs, fin changes] that enhance the original with no detriment to the species.  I’ll never have a problem with that when it’s done with such careful attention toward correcting issues.

That information about the black line likely being from cross breeding with Vietnamese White Clouds is exactly the kind of thing that a knowledgeable breeder has that needs to be disseminated by forums like this.  It’s exactly this type of thing that troubles me about hybrids since 99% of people won’t know that, and hybrids get unknowingly perpetuated.  Until I heard it from you, I didn’t even know there were northern, southern and Vietnamese species.  I haven’t kept White Clouds in decades and have never bred them.

I’m glad to hear you take the same careful approach to breeding your dobermans - one of the breeds for which I have a real soft spot, they’re sooo sweet and lovey!  Thank you for that determination to work towards clearing some of the breed’s health issues.

 

I had people argue with me regarding the strict testing requirements in Germany to maintain breeding privileges. For the life of me, I do not understand why USians would not want an annual exam to ensure breeding stock are healthy, have the right temperament, and are not passing on poor genetics that can drive up health care costs, or worse, make animals suffer. 

Endometriosis, heart problems, eyelids, eyelashes, hips, elbows and spinal deformities are mostly preventable. Why wouldn't people want a national registry to confirm that a vet has given the all clear, and why do they argue against spaying and neutering?

 

 

On 1/15/2022 at 12:45 AM, WhitecloudDynasty said:

I 100% agree, breeding any animals to have health problems isn't right and irresponsible.

I also breed doberman and there some bad gene that comes along with the breed, as a breeder it's my responsibility to make sure the parent don't pass on the negative gene, so my breeder gets health testing and genetics testing. Plus they live like farm dog, I want the hardiest working doberman possible. 

As a white cloud breeder I'm stuck, farm stock have deformity and no one is really working with them... so bad gene gets pass along. Since they don't have anymore in the wild I  can't just clean them up with wild pure stock. I have thought about using their closest cousin (vietnamese white cloud) to clean them up. But with the group(50 fish) I picked up all have poor conformation also. 

Maybe I'm too picky or setting the bar to high o well lol

 

Here's a few photo I pull from the web..these are not my fish

This male have poor jaw, top jaw is too short, and hump is too high

 

his face to angle way too high

badhead poor tail

I'm 90% sure this female is a hybrid, the dark body comes from the normal whitecloud and the dark black bar come from the vietnamese white cloud. So its in the market already.

@Zenzo I agree with Odd Duck, this is information that needs to be widely disseminated. Would be a worthy Member's Talk topic.

[WhitecloudDynasty]

On 1/15/2022 at 10:03 PM, Torrey said:

I had people argue with me regarding the strict testing requirements in Germany to maintain breeding privileges. For the life of me, I do not understand why USians would not want an annual exam to ensure breeding stock are healthy, have the right temperament, and are not passing on poor genetics that can drive up health care costs, or worse, make animals suffer. 

Endometriosis, heart problems, eyelids, eyelashes, hips, elbows and spinal deformities are mostly preventable. Why wouldn't people want a national registry to confirm that a vet has given the all clear, and why do they argue against spaying and neutering?

 

 

@Zenzo I agree with Odd Duck, this is information that needs to be widely disseminated. Would be a worthy Member's Talk topic.

I believe every pet deserve a home, hybrids or  not. But not every pet should be bred from. "Most" of the time when money is involved the quality or health of the animal deteriorate. Generation after generation it could get out of hand.

But everyone have rights to their own opinion so I'm just gonna leave it at that. 

 

[Odd Duck]

@Torrey I’ve had owners want to breed dogs that were cryptorchid (meaning one or both testicles are retained in the abdomen or inguinal area and not in the scrotum where they belong).  This is a trait that is HIGHLY heritable, leads to a high risk of cancer in any retained testicles, and dogs that show this trait should NEVER be bred.

I only wish that the USA required breeders to be registered and they had to pass some sort of certification of some basic knowledge to qualify to breed animals.  

[Torrey]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:31 PM, Odd Duck said:

only wish that the USA required breeders to be registered and they had to pass some sort of certification of some basic knowledge to qualify to breed animals.

Agreed. I quit breeding because I got tired of people wanting shortcuts that were detrimental to the pups.

Redondo Rottweilers were the only US breeder I felt comfortable working with for worthwhile studs, and getting frozen from Germany got cost prohibitive. 

Found out Redondo quit operations around the same time I did, and we can all see the difference in available quality. I doubt the US will have any more Rotts place under German judges... and we will probably see more breed restrictions instead of addressing education of human owners.

I used to take my service dogs to schools to educate kids on responsible pet ownership, and to promote responsible training methods. Kind of like Chuck Eisenmann did with London.

[WhitecloudDynasty]

@Odd Duck

in the aquarium trade there is only 1 white cloud from China everything been mix together.

the photo only show white cloud from southern china, the northern is also different.

 

[Odd Duck]

On 1/17/2022 at 12:23 PM, WhitecloudDynasty said:

@Odd Duck

in the aquarium trade there is only 1 white cloud from China everything been mix together.

the photo only show white cloud from southern china, the northern is also different.

 

Great pictures and great info.  Some subtle and beautiful differences!

[Torrey]

@WhitecloudDynasty thank you so much for educating us, and sharing pictures so we can see how the aquarium industry has done a disservice to these beautiful fish.

I know Mexico is starting to have success with reintroductions of fish that had gone extinct in the wild.

Is that a possibility for the White Cloud Mountain minnow?

Is there any chance of any aquarium populations being healthy enough to be reintroduced?

[PS: I apologize for hijacking your thread to discuss dog breeding. To me, fish deserve the same responsibility in breeding: not limited to mere physical conformation but a holistic approach. They deserve to be healthy, strong, disease resistant, and to have an environment that meets their needs while preserving their identity and existence in the wild]