Keeping Discus vs Angels

[Ruud]

So I will be moving from a flat (with a 100L and a 38L tank) to a proper house where I will have more space for tanks! So I am thinking and preparing and I have always wanted a beautiful tank with a few Discus. 

But I am reading into it and it scares the shit out of me to be honest. People talking about doing daily/ every other day 50% water changes, keeping holding tanks for water etc. I have rock hard water here in Spain. I am talking PH 8+, KH15, GH 20 kind of water. So not sure how viable keeping fish like this is, I am afraid it will be an uphill battle with fish that seem particularly sensitive. 

(weirdly enough all fish stores stock discus here - need to figure out how they do it! Probably mixing tap and RO water magic)

So here I am at... instead of doing 5 Discuss in a 55G bare tank... why don't I do try Angels with a bunch of Corys instead? I'd like that too

So I guess my question is - are Angels in general easier to care for if you live in a place where water is hard? Are they less sensitive? Are there any members here that have experience with keeping Angels and/or Discus in harder water? I am not trying to be lazy, I just don't want to get fish that I can't give the proper care. 

Adding a nice photo for your viewing pleasure. Also .... for those that live with soft water on tap, take a moment to be thankful for that blessing!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Ruud
Typo's

[Colu]

 

If your interested in discus I would get heiko Bleher discus volume 1 and 2 maybe @Fish Folk can chip in as he keeps discus 

[Brandon p]

It’s not as hard as you think. I have very hard water, do water changes every 10 days. I do treat the water with phosphoric acid( search Jack Watley Discus on YouTube for ph ) in to get that ph down. I would try to buy tank raised discus because the tend to be less sensitive to ph. My tank is a 75g I have cories, 4 discus, 4 angelfish, 5 Clown loaches, L-134 pleco and a few small BN plecos

water conditions range last 6 months

PH          Am        Nitrate    Nitrite   GH    Kh    
6.2-6.6    0-25    0-.25    0-.25   300+  20-40

 

Feel free for more details. 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Brandon p

[Fish Folk]

On 11/23/2021 at 12:47 PM, Ruud said:

So I will be moving from a flat (with a 100L and a 38L tank) to a proper house where I will have more space for tanks! So I am thinking and preparing and I have always wanted a beautiful tank with a few Discus. 

But I am reading into it and it scares the shit out of me to be honest. People talking about doing daily/ every other day 50% water changes, keeping holding tanks for water etc. I have rock hard water here in Spain. I am talking PH 8+, KH15, GH 20 kind of water. So not sure how viable keeping fish like this is, I am afraid it will be an uphill battle with fish that seem particularly sensitive. 

(weirdly enough all fish stores stock discus here - need to figure out how they do it! Probably mixing tap and RO water magic)

So here I am at... instead of doing 5 Discuss in a 55G bare tank... why don't I do try Angels with a bunch of Corys instead? I'd like that too

So I guess my question is - are Angels in general easier to care for if you live in a place where water is hard? Are they less sensitive? Are there any members here that have experience with keeping Angels and/or Discus in harder water? I am not trying to be lazy, I just don't want to get fish that I can't give the proper care. 

Adding a nice photo for your viewing pleasure. Also .... for those that live with soft water on tap, take a moment to be thankful for that blessing!

 

 

 

 

 

I have found that keeping Discus is easy. I keep 10x in a 55 gal (that's a lot . . . you can definitely do a smaller grouping of 5-6x). I keep it heavily planted. And all I use for filtration is two large sponge filters. I do a 50% water change just _once per week_ using my soft tap / city water. If your tap water isn't ridiculously hard, and if your pet stores keep them, you're just fine.

Here's a recent video of mine. I've never spent more than $50 on a discus either. I buy them small -- the size of a silver dollar -- and let them grow up in my water. Several tips keys: (1) Make sure your tank is well cycled. Don't be trying to catch up on your cycle when you add Discus. (2) Keep them nice and warm -- 82-87-degrees F. (3) Feed them quality foods, as much as you can afford. Live = Best; Frozen = Good; Dry = Third Choice.

Here's a video from last summer...

Here's a more recent video, me feeding them live Black Worms...

I have learned a ton listening to Gabe Posada from Jack Wattley Discus. Cory has interviewed him before.

It is correct that if you're trying to BREED Discus, you'll need very specific water parameters. However, just to keep them, you're absolutely fine as long as your water is not impossibly hard (high GH + high KH). I do not mix any RO water at all.

[Biotope Biologist]

Generally speaking angelfish are easier to keep. Not because of your hard water situation, but because they don't require established aquariums to be happy. 

 

Many people keep discus in harder water and have no issues, with discus keeping up on aquarium maintenance is not only required but essential. 

 

Now I will talk briefly about the physiology of angelfish and discus and why discus are seemingly sensitive, but actually hyper adapted to an environment that's hard to replicate in home aquaria. Discus and to a lesser extent angelfish have adapted to the black waters of the tributaries in the amazon river basin. Here pH drops to as low as 5.0 and kh and gh is practically non existent due to plant uptake and high levels of decomp. Since that is the case these fish have evolved special sodium ion channels that can be inhibited in water that lacks sodium, magnesium, and calcium thus allowing them to be 1.5 times more effective at maintaining equilibrium. For freshwater fish this is extremely important because if you lose sodium to the environment your important organs such as heart and brain will not function properly.

 

Also I'd go back and edit out the profanity before a moderator sees it. It is in the forum rules. 

[Brandon p]

@Ruud Fish Folk is someone that I respect and is way better than I am. He has helped me  with my other Discus tank. I thought you wanted to keep the two species together. I have made the mistake of buying big Beautiful Discus and then they would die for two reasons lack of knowledge and the smaller discus seem to adjust the best.

@Fish FolkThank you for tour past help.

[Ruud]

Thank you Fish folk and Brandon. That sounds a bit more reassuring. I have been lurking around on a discus forum and watched some videos and I just do not want to start the adventure without being sure I can keep up. 

I will look into the phosphoric acid treatment. I guess my tap water is very hard with a PH of 8+, a GH of 375 and KH of around 20. It seems people here dilute with 30% or more RO water, but will need to investigate more and speak to some LFS.

Those discus look gorgeous @Fish Folk

I was looking around on a specific Discus forum and the consensus there is you need to do daily water changes, keep them in a bare tank etc etc. Fact is I want to enjoy my fish and don't need excessive worries like that. Thank you all for calming my mind on these and confirming it doesn't have to be THAT complicated. Food for thought. 

 

PS, is 'scared the shit out of me' considered a profanity these days?? If so I apologize - it must be my liberal upbringing being Dutch. 

 

[Biotope Biologist]

On 11/23/2021 at 1:50 PM, Ruud said:

PS, is 'scared the shit out of me' considered a profanity these days?? If so I apologize - it must be my liberal upbringing being Dutch. 

 

I believe so. I'm not a moderator so it's not up to me to enforce guidelines. 

 

As someone who has spent the better part of 3 years on fishing vessels, I am no stranger to such things. In fact if each sentence doesn't have at least 3 uses of my favorite word that rhymes with duck, my friends think something is wrong with me. 

 

I don't think you need to keep them in a bare tank. Heavily planted and well established are better in my mind because you have extreme amounts of biological filtration to keep up so that if you do accidentally slack, the consequences aren't as severe. You also will have the added bonus of creation of CO2 and decomposition which will lower your pH, kh and gh. I would also recommend using RO in partial water changes since your measurements are so high. Keep in mind adding wood will also release tannic acid which is a weak acid further lowering your kh and ph.

[Andy's Fish Den]

I have kept many discus over my 30+ years in the hobby, and bred them a few times. If you start with quality fish, not ones from a chain pet store and feed good foods, they will be fine. You only have to do frequent daily or several times a week water changes when you are growing fry and juveniles up. Look up Stendker discus, they are bred over in Germany I believe and are used to harder water. George Farmer and I think MD fish tanks has said their discus are Stendker in their discus tanks. Keep them warm, 84-86*F, feed a good quality pellet food or frozen foods, weekly 40-50% water changes and you will be golden. The only time you should have to mess with the water chemistry is if you want o try to spawn them. 

[Jeff]

I'm going to be setting up a Discus tank as well. 
 

Would an AquaClear 110 be too much flow on a 90g tank for them? 
 

[Biotope Biologist]

On 11/23/2021 at 7:28 PM, Jeff said:

I'm going to be setting up a Discus tank as well. 
 

Would an AquaClear 110 be too much flow on a 90g tank for them? 
 

Should be good. Although 90g are usually long and low slung. It might be best to have 2 HOBs in this case so you don't have any dead zones in the tank.

[Jeff]

@Biotope Biologist That's exactly what I was thinking - one on each end of the tank. But, was curious about the flow of an AC to begin with.

[HH Morant]

Aquariumscience.org has a long article on keeping discus in which the author argues that it is not as difficult as some say. Even as he describes it, I am not willing to go there now. Maybe someday. They are beautiful fish.

My angels are easy.

[Ruud]

On 11/24/2021 at 8:01 PM, HH Morant said:

Aquariumscience.org has a long article on keeping discus in which the author argues that it is not as difficult as some say. Even as he describes it, I am not willing to go there now. Maybe someday. They are beautiful fish.

My angels are easy.

Thank you sir, I am leading to that conclusion as well for now

[anewbie]

The number one reason I have decided to not keep discus is that the temp they require (86) is not compatible with anything else i want to keep (other than pleco and a few tetra). I'm setting up a spare 450G and i seriously considered making it a discus aquarium but I just can't bring myself to run an aquarium at that temp - and quite frankly I think discus are over rated (this is a personal choice). By making it a ram tank (and i really like rams); i can mix in a whole bunch of other stuff that just wouldn't work well with discus. Discus are fussy little devil with no grit. They can't tolerate anything that is the least bit competitive (i'm not talking about fighting but eating). Angels are not angles - they are little devils - and for the most part can hold their own in a passive tank (you don't want some large aggressive cichlid that will rip them to shred).  Having said that I've begun to get annoyed at the 8 angels i have in my 120 as they spend all day fighting (these are adults; but they just don't get along at all now adays).

[Brandon p]

I keep mine is at 82-84